# Flock cameras and the privacy debate
# FOX 9 Minneapolis-St. Paul — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asQt2VPQi_4

Welcome back. Police
departments across Minnesota
Welcome back. Police
departments across Minnesota
are increasingly using flock
departments across Minnesota
are increasingly using flock
license plate cameras to
are increasingly using flock
license plate cameras to
help solve crimes, but the
license plate cameras to
help solve crimes, but the
technology is also
help solve crimes, but the
technology is also
raising a lot of privacy
technology is also
raising a lot of privacy
concerns. Joining us now to
raising a lot of privacy
concerns. Joining us now to
talk about this issue is a
concerns. Joining us now to
talk about this issue is a
senior policy analyst with
talk about this issue is a
senior policy analyst with
the ACLU, Jay Stanley. Jay,
senior policy analyst with
the ACLU, Jay Stanley. Jay,
thanks for joining me.
the ACLU, Jay Stanley. Jay,
thanks for joining me.
Thanks for having me on.
thanks for joining me.
Thanks for having me on.
Jay, you’re considering an
Thanks for having me on.
Jay, you’re considering an
expert on this topic.
Jay, you’re considering an
expert on this topic.
You’ve written several
expert on this topic.
You’ve written several
articles about flock
You’ve written several
articles about flock
cameras. For our viewers who
articles about flock
cameras. For our viewers who
aren’t familiar with these
cameras. For our viewers who
aren’t familiar with these
cameras, can you just break
aren’t familiar with these
cameras, can you just break
down what they are and
cameras, can you just break
down what they are and
what they do? Yeah, so
down what they are and
what they do? Yeah, so
license plate readers are
what they do? Yeah, so
license plate readers are
basically AI enabled cameras
license plate readers are
basically AI enabled cameras
that are pointed at traffic
basically AI enabled cameras
that are pointed at traffic
on a road or highway. And
that are pointed at traffic
on a road or highway. And
look at the license plate
on a road or highway. And
look at the license plate
on each car. And use AI
look at the license plate
on each car. And use AI
to figure out what the
on each car. And use AI
to figure out what the
numbers is and then records
to figure out what the
numbers is and then records
the fact that your license
numbers is and then records
the fact that your license
plate was on this corner
the fact that your license
plate was on this corner
at this time and stores
plate was on this corner
at this time and stores
that in a database. A lot
at this time and stores
that in a database. A lot
of the modern ones are
that in a database. A lot
of the modern ones are
using AI to do more than
of the modern ones are
using AI to do more than
just scan the license
using AI to do more than
just scan the license
plate. They are collecting
just scan the license
plate. They are collecting
information about your
plate. They are collecting
information about your
vehicle overall bumper
information about your
vehicle overall bumper
stickers you might have
vehicle overall bumper
stickers you might have
distinguishing
stickers you might have
distinguishing
characteristics like a gun
distinguishing
characteristics like a gun
rack or modifications
characteristics like a gun
rack or modifications
because you’re a disabled
rack or modifications
because you’re a disabled
person or other
person or other things. It
is a powerful surveillance
person or other things. It
is a powerful surveillance
tool and there are networks
is a powerful surveillance
tool and there are networks
of these cameras all around
tool and there are networks
of these cameras all around
the country that the company
of these cameras all around
the country that the company
Flock runs all of them. And
the country that the company
Flock runs all of them. And
so all that data can flow
Flock runs all of them. And
so all that data can flow
to the company’s servers and
so all that data can flow
to the company’s servers and
in many cases can be
to the company’s servers and
in many cases can be
searched. By police
in many cases can be
searched. By police
anywhere in America, even
searched. By police
anywhere in America, even
a search in your
anywhere in America, even
a search in your
community. So Flock says
a search in your
community. So Flock says
that all their storing is
community. So Flock says
that all their storing is
license plate information,
that all their storing is
license plate information,
but you’re saying they’re
license plate information,
but you’re saying they’re
collecting more than that.
but you’re saying they’re
collecting more than that.
Do you guys have any data
collecting more than that.
Do you guys have any data
or information that leads
Do you guys have any data
or information that leads
you to believe that they are
or information that leads
you to believe that they are
saving information about the
you to believe that they are
saving information about the
car, about the driver
saving information about the
car, about the driver
beyond just the license
car, about the driver
beyond just the license
plate?
plate? Well their own
marketing materials,
plate? Well their own
marketing materials,
they talk about what they
marketing materials,
they talk about what they
call vehicle fingerprinting
they talk about what they
call vehicle fingerprinting
technology, which stores the
call vehicle fingerprinting
technology, which stores the
color, the make and the
technology, which stores the
color, the make and the
model of cars in
color, the make and the
model of cars in
addition to the license plate
model of cars in
addition to the license plate
number. You know anything.
Like crumpled bumper or
as I said things like
Like crumpled bumper or
as I said things like
bumper stickers. And so
as I said things like
bumper stickers. And so
that is a much more
bumper stickers. And so
that is a much more
powerful sort of vehicle
that is a much more
powerful sort of vehicle
search tool than just the
powerful sort of vehicle
search tool than just the
license plates. But even the
search tool than just the
license plates. But even the
license plates is very
license plates. But even the
license plates is very
powerful because it means
license plates is very
powerful because it means
they can run your car. And
powerful because it means
they can run your car. And
they could find out a bunch
they can run your car. And
they could find out a bunch
of things about where
they could find out a bunch
of things about where
you’ve been going and at
of things about where
you’ve been going and at
what time. And that’s
you’ve been going and at
what time. And that’s
where a lot of the privacy
what time. And that’s
where a lot of the privacy
issues come in. So are the
where a lot of the privacy
issues come in. So are the
privacy issues about data
issues come in. So are the
privacy issues about data
collection and data storage
privacy issues about data
collection and data storage
or is it more than that?
It is about that. Yes,
it’s mainly about that. I
It is about that. Yes,
it’s mainly about that. I
mean records of where
it’s mainly about that. I
mean records of where
people are going in their
mean records of where
people are going in their
life. Are very private. It
people are going in their
life. Are very private. It
can show things about how
life. Are very private. It
can show things about how
often you go to bars,
can show things about how
often you go to bars,
whether you go to certain
often you go to bars,
whether you go to certain
doctors, Alzheimer’s
whether you go to certain
doctors, Alzheimer’s
doctors, what kind of
doctors, Alzheimer’s
doctors, what kind of
sexually oriented
doctors, what kind of
sexually oriented
religiously oriented union
sexually oriented
religiously oriented union
activity, political activity.
religiously oriented union
activity, political activity.
All kinds of things there.
activity, political activity.
All kinds of things there.
There have been agencies
All kinds of things there.
There have been agencies
that have been found
There have been agencies
that have been found
putting. License plate
that have been found
putting. License plate
readers outside of gun
putting. License plate
readers outside of gun
shows, for example. ATF was
readers outside of gun
shows, for example. ATF was
doing that. And so this is
shows, for example. ATF was
doing that. And so this is
something that’s provoking
doing that. And so this is
something that’s provoking
concern across the political
something that’s provoking
concern across the political
spectrum. We’re seeing a lot
concern across the political
spectrum. We’re seeing a lot
of people on both the
spectrum. We’re seeing a lot
of people on both the
left, the right and the
of people on both the
left, the right and the
middle. Who are objecting to
left, the right and the
middle. Who are objecting to
this kind of privacy
middle. Who are objecting to
this kind of privacy
invasion. And, you know,
this kind of privacy
invasion. And, you know,
obviously a police officer
invasion. And, you know,
obviously a police officer
standing on a corner can
obviously a police officer
standing on a corner can
see your vehicle. But if
standing on a corner can
see your vehicle. But if
the police were following
see your vehicle. But if
the police were following
you around 24/7 for a
the police were following
you around 24/7 for a
month, you’d be very
you around 24/7 for a
month, you’d be very
spooked out by that. Yeah,
month, you’d be very
spooked out by that. Yeah,
certainly. You’ve written
spooked out by that. Yeah,
certainly. You’ve written
that the biggest danger is
certainly. You’ve written
that the biggest danger is
Mission Creep. What does
that the biggest danger is
Mission Creep. What does
that mean and what are
Mission Creep. What does
that mean and what are
some examples that you’ve
that mean and what are
some examples that you’ve
already seen of these
some examples that you’ve
already seen of these
systems being used in ways
already seen of these
systems being used in ways
communities never
systems being used in ways
communities never
anticipated?
anticipated? Yeah, well.
This is a very powerful
anticipated? Yeah, well.
This is a very powerful
surveillance tool and what
This is a very powerful
surveillance tool and what
happens when you create
surveillance tool and what
happens when you create
systems like this is that
happens when you create
systems like this is that
it does end up getting
systems like this is that
it does end up getting
used for other things. There
it does end up getting
used for other things. There
have been controversies
used for other things. There
have been controversies
about people in communities
have been controversies
about people in communities
saying, well, my local law
about people in communities
saying, well, my local law
enforcement wants to do
saying, well, my local law
enforcement wants to do
this and store this data
enforcement wants to do
this and store this data
maybe for a limited period
this and store this data
maybe for a limited period
of time. That’s one that’s
maybe for a limited period
of time. That’s one that’s
okay. And then are surprised
of time. That’s one that’s
okay. And then are surprised
to learn that a sheriff in
okay. And then are surprised
to learn that a sheriff in
Texas is searching their
to learn that a sheriff in
Texas is searching their
data and looking for a woman
Texas is searching their
data and looking for a woman
who had an abortion, which
data and looking for a woman
who had an abortion, which
is currently illegal in
who had an abortion, which
is currently illegal in
Texas. And that it’s being
is currently illegal in
Texas. And that it’s being
used by ICE for immigration
Texas. And that it’s being
used by ICE for immigration
detention. It’s being used
used by ICE for immigration
detention. It’s being used
to investigate
to investigate protesters.
So that is a lot of the
to investigate protesters.
So that is a lot of the
reason why we worry about
So that is a lot of the
reason why we worry about
Mission Creep. And we’re
reason why we worry about
Mission Creep. And we’re
also seeing AI used for
Mission Creep. And we’re
also seeing AI used for
it. People are getting
also seeing AI used for
it. People are getting
stopped. Because they are
it. People are getting
stopped. Because they are
told that they’re quote
stopped. Because they are
told that they’re quote
unquote patterns of
told that they’re quote
unquote patterns of
movement are suspicious. And
unquote patterns of
movement are suspicious. And
Flock brags about this in
movement are suspicious. And
Flock brags about this in
their marketing materials
Flock brags about this in
their marketing materials
that they can do analyses
their marketing materials
that they can do analyses
and flag people who for
that they can do analyses
and flag people who for
whatever
whatever reason may be
driving around in ways
whatever reason may be
driving around in ways
that are different from
driving around in ways
that are different from
everybody else and bring
that are different from
everybody else and bring
them to the attention of
everybody else and bring
them to the attention of
law enforcement. And then
them to the attention of
law enforcement. And then
law enforcement will
law enforcement. And then
law enforcement will
sometimes pull those people
law enforcement will
sometimes pull those people
over on a pretext. So
sometimes pull those people
over on a pretext. So
that’s the kind of way
over on a pretext. So
that’s the kind of way
that AI is making uses
that’s the kind of way
that AI is making uses
of this technology in
that AI is making uses
of this technology in
ways that a lot of people
of this technology in
ways that a lot of people
don’t expect when they
ways that a lot of people
don’t expect when they
just say, okay, the police
don’t expect when they
just say, okay, the police
say it’s going to be used
just say, okay, the police
say it’s going to be used
to catch bad guys that
say it’s going to be used
to catch bad guys that
I’m in favor of that.
to catch bad guys that
I’m in favor of that.
And of course
I’m in favor of that.
And of course
everybody’s in favor of
And of course
everybody’s in favor of
that, but you have to ask
everybody’s in favor of
that, but you have to ask
what the side effects are.
that, but you have to ask
what the side effects are.
How much control do these
what the side effects are.
How much control do these
cities have that deploy
How much control do these
cities have that deploy
the flock cameras over the
cities have that deploy
the flock cameras over the
data and where that data
the flock cameras over the
data and where that data
goes?
goes? So they have a
certain amount of
goes? So they have a
certain amount of
control when you if your
certain amount of
control when you if your
city decides that you want,
control when you if your
city decides that you want,
that it wants to have a
city decides that you want,
that it wants to have a
contract with Flock. The
that it wants to have a
contract with Flock. The
first decision
first decision is does
your city share its data
first decision is does
your city share its data
nationwide? And what Flock
your city share its data
nationwide? And what Flock
can do is they can let
nationwide? And what Flock
can do is they can let
your police chief do a
can do is they can let
your police chief do a
search of a license plate
your police chief do a
search of a license plate
not only in your community,
search of a license plate
not only in your community,
but anywhere in America.
not only in your community,
but anywhere in America.
But if they want, if your
but anywhere in America.
But if they want, if your
police chief wants that
But if they want, if your
police chief wants that
power. Then they have to
police chief wants that
power. Then they have to
agree to share your
power. Then they have to
agree to share your
community’s data with all
agree to share your
community’s data with all
the other police chiefs
community’s data with all
the other police chiefs
everywhere in America. And
the other police chiefs
everywhere in America. And
that’s when you see a lot
everywhere in America. And
that’s when you see a lot
of the ice usages and
that’s when you see a lot
of the ice usages and
stuff. And so, but you can
of the ice usages and
stuff. And so, but you can
say you don’t want to be part
stuff. And so, but you can
say you don’t want to be part
of that and that you don’t
say you don’t want to be part
of that and that you don’t
want block to make your
of that and that you don’t
want block to make your
community’s data available
want block to make your
community’s data available
everywhere in the country.
community’s data available
everywhere in the country.
And you can put a lot of
everywhere in the country.
And you can put a lot of
other restrictions we have
And you can put a lot of
other restrictions we have
on our website recommended
other restrictions we have
on our website recommended
language. We recommend not
on our website recommended
language. We recommend not
becoming a customer flock,
language. We recommend not
becoming a customer flock,
but some cities decide to.
becoming a customer flock,
but some cities decide to.
And if you’re going to do
but some cities decide to.
And if you’re going to do
that, you can limit the way
And if you’re going to do
that, you can limit the way
that it’s used. You can
that, you can limit the way
that it’s used. You can
limit how long the data is
that it’s used. You can
limit how long the data is
retained. Some things you
limit how long the data is
retained. Some things you
can’t control. The data is
retained. Some things you
can’t control. The data is
still flowing to this for
can’t control. The data is
still flowing to this for
profit company about, you
still flowing to this for
profit company about, you
know, everybody in your
profit company about, you
know, everybody in your
community and where they’re
know, everybody in your
community and where they’re
driving and when. But there
community and where they’re
driving and when. But there
are a lot of things that
driving and when. But there
are a lot of things that
you can do to limit how
are a lot of things that
you can do to limit how
much of that data is
you can do to limit how
much of that data is
shared. You’ve written about
much of that data is
shared. You’ve written about
how Flock has changed some
shared. You’ve written about
how Flock has changed some
of its contracts in ways
how Flock has changed some
of its contracts in ways
that shift control away
of its contracts in ways
that shift control away
from the cities. So what
that shift control away
from the cities. So what
should cities know before
from the cities. So what
should cities know before
they sign a contract? What
should cities know before
they sign a contract? What
they should they be
they sign a contract? What
they should they be
looking for before they
they should they be
looking for before they
sign a contract or renew a
looking for before they
sign a contract or renew a
contract with Flock.
Yeah, I think the biggest
thing is again.
thing is again. Are you
allowing nationwide data
thing is again. Are you
allowing nationwide data
sharing.
sharing. What kinds of.
Data retention periods are
sharing. What kinds of.
Data retention periods are
you allowing for?
you allowing for? And then
look at exactly what
you allowing for? And then
look at exactly what
they’re saying in terms of
look at exactly what
they’re saying in terms of
does your city own the
they’re saying in terms of
does your city own the
data? Does your city get
does your city own the
data? Does your city get
to access. The data? In its
data? Does your city get
to access. The data? In its
original form?
original form? And that’s
where we’ve seen some of
original form? And that’s
where we’ve seen some of
these shifting contract
where we’ve seen some of
these shifting contract
language by the company.
these shifting contract
language by the company.
Creating pitfalls for
language by the company.
Creating pitfalls for
cities.
cities. We’ve had people
say, you know, if this
cities. We’ve had people
say, you know, if this
helps police catch dangerous
say, you know, if this
helps police catch dangerous
criminals, you know, why
helps police catch dangerous
criminals, you know, why
wouldn’t we use it? Why
criminals, you know, why
wouldn’t we use it? Why
should we be against it?
wouldn’t we use it? Why
should we be against it?
What do you say to those
should we be against it?
What do you say to those
people?
people? Yeah, look, obviously
everybody, we’re all in
people? Yeah, look, obviously
everybody, we’re all in
favor of catching dangerous
everybody, we’re all in
favor of catching dangerous
criminals, but you have to
favor of catching dangerous
criminals, but you have to
ask, you know. What, not
criminals, but you have to
ask, you know. What, not
just does this ever do
ask, you know. What, not
just does this ever do
anything? And of course, the
just does this ever do
anything? And of course, the
police will tout its
anything? And of course, the
police will tout its
successes. But what kind of
police will tout its
successes. But what kind of
failures are there? How
successes. But what kind of
failures are there? How
many innocent people are
failures are there? How
many innocent people are
getting caught up by
many innocent people are
getting caught up by
errors? And there have been
getting caught up by
errors? And there have been
people all around the
errors? And there have been
people all around the
country who have found
people all around the
country who have found
themselves lying on the
country who have found
themselves lying on the
pavement with a jittery
themselves lying on the
pavement with a jittery
police officer pointing a
pavement with a jittery
police officer pointing a
gun at them. Because a flock
police officer pointing a
gun at them. Because a flock
reader or another licensed
gun at them. Because a flock
reader or another licensed
company’s license plate
reader or another licensed
company’s license plate
reader misread their license
company’s license plate
reader misread their license
plate or the misread what
reader misread their license
plate or the misread what
state it was or the NCIC,
plate or the misread what
state it was or the NCIC,
which is the FBI criminal
state it was or the NCIC,
which is the FBI criminal
database that Flock
which is the FBI criminal
database that Flock
references. Wasn’t updated.
database that Flock
references. Wasn’t updated.
So a car that was stolen
references. Wasn’t updated.
So a car that was stolen
has actually been
So a car that was stolen
has actually been
returned and it was a rental
has actually been
returned and it was a rental
car. You’re renting it. And
returned and it was a rental
car. You’re renting it. And
now the police think that
car. You’re renting it. And
now the police think that
you’re a dangerous criminal
now the police think that
you’re a dangerous criminal
because the system is
you’re a dangerous criminal
because the system is
messed up. And, you know,
because the system is
messed up. And, you know,
police made errors before
messed up. And, you know,
police made errors before
we had these kinds of
police made errors before
we had these kinds of
system. But when you have
we had these kinds of
system. But when you have
this company and other
system. But when you have
this company and other
companies that are often
this company and other
companies that are often
equally as scary, you know,
companies that are often
equally as scary, you know,
doing billions of plate
equally as scary, you know,
doing billions of plate
reads every day. Then
doing billions of plate
reads every day. Then
you’re going to get more
reads every day. Then
you’re going to get more
errors. You’re going to get
you’re going to get more
errors. You’re going to get
more of this kind of stuff
errors. You’re going to get
more of this kind of stuff
happening. And we’re all
more of this kind of stuff
happening. And we’re all
susceptible to, you know,
happening. And we’re all
susceptible to, you know,
being caught up by an
susceptible to, you know,
being caught up by an
error. We’re all susceptible
being caught up by an
error. We’re all susceptible
to the police targeting us
error. We’re all susceptible
to the police targeting us
because, you know, we’re
to the police targeting us
because, you know, we’re
driving around aimlessly.
because, you know, we’re
driving around aimlessly.
Maybe we’re looking at
driving around aimlessly.
Maybe we’re looking at
houses or something and
Maybe we’re looking at
houses or something and
their algorithm decides that
houses or something and
their algorithm decides that
we’re suspicious. And so. And
their algorithm decides that
we’re suspicious. And so. And
also, you know, if I’m
we’re suspicious. And so. And
also, you know, if I’m
driving downtown at two in
also, you know, if I’m
driving downtown at two in
the morning. And I’m not
driving downtown at two in
the morning. And I’m not
doing anything wrong, why
the morning. And I’m not
doing anything wrong, why
are the police keeping tabs
doing anything wrong, why
are the police keeping tabs
on me? Why are they keeping
are the police keeping tabs
on me? Why are they keeping
records on when I’m driving
on me? Why are they keeping
records on when I’m driving
and where I am? And I
records on when I’m driving
and where I am? And I
think a lot of Americans
and where I am? And I
think a lot of Americans
just find it fundamentally
think a lot of Americans
just find it fundamentally
offensive and feel that the
just find it fundamentally
offensive and feel that the
government shouldn’t be
offensive and feel that the
government shouldn’t be
looking over everybody’s
government shouldn’t be
looking over everybody’s
shoulder just in case
looking over everybody’s
shoulder just in case
you’re a criminal. Looking
shoulder just in case
you’re a criminal. Looking
over everybody’s shoulder
you’re a criminal. Looking
over everybody’s shoulder
all the time. And that’s not
over everybody’s shoulder
all the time. And that’s not
the way that, you know,
all the time. And that’s not
the way that, you know,
we’re supposed to live in
the way that, you know,
we’re supposed to live in
America. This happened
we’re supposed to live in
America. This happened
just yesterday, an
America. This happened
just yesterday, an
automotive journalist who’s
just yesterday, an
automotive journalist who’s
based here in Minnesota
automotive journalist who’s
based here in Minnesota
wrote about his encounter
based here in Minnesota
wrote about his encounter
with a local police
wrote about his encounter
with a local police
department. You know, he
with a local police
department. You know, he
gets new cars every couple
department. You know, he
gets new cars every couple
of weeks. I’ve interviewed
gets new cars every couple
of weeks. I’ve interviewed
Joel a couple times in my
of weeks. I’ve interviewed
Joel a couple times in my
career. But Joel Federer,
Joel a couple times in my
career. But Joel Federer,
he writes for the Drive.com
career. But Joel Federer,
he writes for the Drive.com
and several other automobile
he writes for the Drive.com
and several other automobile
review sites and news
and several other automobile
review sites and news
publications. And he was
review sites and news
publications. And he was
driving like he always
publications. And he was
driving like he always
does a lone vehicle. He
driving like he always
does a lone vehicle. He
gets a new car about every
does a lone vehicle. He
gets a new car about every
two weeks. And he was driving
gets a new car about every
two weeks. And he was driving
this lone vehicle and got
two weeks. And he was driving
this lone vehicle and got
stopped by police. They put
this lone vehicle and got
stopped by police. They put
him through the ringer for a
stopped by police. They put
him through the ringer for a
couple hours, him and his
him through the ringer for a
couple hours, him and his
wife. Turns out it was all a
couple hours, him and his
wife. Turns out it was all a
big mistake. They had the
wife. Turns out it was all a
big mistake. They had the
license plate wrong. Is
big mistake. They had the
license plate wrong. Is
this something that is
license plate wrong. Is
this something that is
happening to everyday
this something that is
happening to everyday
people normally? And what’s
happening to everyday
people normally? And what’s
your reaction to what
people normally? And what’s
your reaction to what
happened to Joel? Yeah, I
your reaction to what
happened to Joel? Yeah, I
mean, that’s terrible.
happened to Joel? Yeah, I
mean, that’s terrible.
And, you know, it’s scary
mean, that’s terrible.
And, you know, it’s scary
to have law enforcement
And, you know, it’s scary
to have law enforcement
thinking that you’re a
to have law enforcement
thinking that you’re a
really dangerous person
thinking that you’re a
really dangerous person
when you know you’re not.
And some of those cases turn
out very tragically, as we
And some of those cases turn
out very tragically, as we
all know. And so that’s a
out very tragically, as we
all know. And so that’s a
dangerous thing. And you
all know. And so that’s a
dangerous thing. And you
know, a lot of people say,
dangerous thing. And you
know, a lot of people say,
well, I don’t have anything
know, a lot of people say,
well, I don’t have anything
to hide, so why do I care
well, I don’t have anything
to hide, so why do I care
if everybody’s watching?
to hide, so why do I care
if everybody’s watching?
And, you know, one of the
if everybody’s watching?
And, you know, one of the
answers is because of
And, you know, one of the
answers is because of
errors, because mistakes are
answers is because of
errors, because mistakes are
made. And when you, the
errors, because mistakes are
made. And when you, the
more surveillance you do,
made. And when you, the
more surveillance you do,
the more decisions you’re
more surveillance you do,
the more decisions you’re
making about is this
the more decisions you’re
making about is this
person okay? Is this
making about is this
person okay? Is this
person okay? Then the more
person okay? Is this
person okay? Then the more
this is going to happen.
person okay? Then the more
this is going to happen.
But, you know, it’s also
this is going to happen.
But, you know, it’s also
not just about errors. It’s
But, you know, it’s also
not just about errors. It’s
all you don’t want, we don’t
not just about errors. It’s
all you don’t want, we don’t
want to have this kind
all you don’t want, we don’t
want to have this kind
of surveillance because it
want to have this kind
of surveillance because it
creates chilling effects.
of surveillance because it
creates chilling effects.
It makes everybody feel
creates chilling effects.
It makes everybody feel
watched all the time. It
It makes everybody feel
watched all the time. It
lends itself to abuses, for
watched all the time. It
lends itself to abuses, for
example, political purposes.
And so, you know, I think
that the lesson here is
And so, you know, I think
that the lesson here is
that, you know, when the
that the lesson here is
that, you know, when the
police towel, oh, this had
that, you know, when the
police towel, oh, this had
this great success from the
police towel, oh, this had
this great success from the
surveillance
this great success from the
surveillance
technology, you have to
surveillance
technology, you have to
look beyond that and not
technology, you have to
look beyond that and not
just say, okay, that’s
look beyond that and not
just say, okay, that’s
great, but what are the
just say, okay, that’s
great, but what are the
other side effects of this
great, but what are the
other side effects of this
technology? And what is it
other side effects of this
technology? And what is it
doing for our communities?
technology? And what is it
doing for our communities?
Right. And we did interview
doing for our communities?
Right. And we did interview
Joel and we’ve got that
Right. And we did interview
Joel and we’ve got that
story up on Fox 9. If
Joel and we’ve got that
story up on Fox 9. If
anybody wants to see his
story up on Fox 9. If
anybody wants to see his
story, he also published a
anybody wants to see his
story, he also published a
lengthy article about his
story, he also published a
lengthy article about his
encounter with police and
lengthy article about his
encounter with police and
this mishap on the
encounter with police and
this mishap on the
Drive.com. what’s one
this mishap on the
Drive.com. what’s one
question that you think
Drive.com. what’s one
question that you think
that residents and city
question that you think
that residents and city
council members should be
that residents and city
council members should be
asking themselves before
council members should be
asking themselves before
they sign a contract or
asking themselves before
they sign a contract or
consider working with
they sign a contract or
consider working with
Flock.
Flock. I mean, I think one
of the basic questions
Flock. I mean, I think one
of the basic questions
is, you know, how do you how
of the basic questions
is, you know, how do you how
would you feel after a while
is, you know, how do you how
would you feel after a while
after this has been going
would you feel after a while
after this has been going
on for a while, just sort
after this has been going
on for a while, just sort
of knowing that. There is
on for a while, just sort
of knowing that. There is
logged at the police
of knowing that. There is
logged at the police
station? You know, a record
logged at the police
station? You know, a record
of where you’re driving and
station? You know, a record
of where you’re driving and
when. And, you know, at
of where you’re driving and
when. And, you know, at
first you might not think
when. And, you know, at
first you might not think
about it, might not seem
first you might not think
about it, might not seem
like a big deal, but I think
about it, might not seem
like a big deal, but I think
that over time it creates
like a big deal, but I think
that over time it creates
chilling effects. And, you
that over time it creates
chilling effects. And, you
know, maybe you’re going to
chilling effects. And, you
know, maybe you’re going to
protest the police or
know, maybe you’re going to
protest the police or
you’re going to protest
protest the police or
you’re going to protest
something else. And you’re
you’re going to protest
something else. And you’re
just like, or you heard
something else. And you’re
just like, or you heard
about somebody who was
just like, or you heard
about somebody who was
stopped by error or
about somebody who was
stopped by error or
something like, like the
stopped by error or
something like, like the
person that you interviewed
something like, like the
person that you interviewed
or stopped because their
person that you interviewed
or stopped because their
movements were
or stopped because their
movements were
suspicious and you start
movements were
suspicious and you start
saying to yourself. The
suspicious and you start
saying to yourself. The
police going to think that
saying to yourself. The
police going to think that
this driving that I’m doing
police going to think that
this driving that I’m doing
is suspicious. And you start
this driving that I’m doing
is suspicious. And you start
to become self
is suspicious. And you start
to become self
conscious. And I don’t think
to become self
conscious. And I don’t think
that that. S how we should
conscious. And I don’t think
that that. S how we should
have to live in this
that that. S how we should
have to live in this
country.
country. Yeah. Where do
they place these cameras?
country. Yeah. Where do
they place these cameras?
That’s what I’m having a
they place these cameras?
That’s what I’m having a
hard time understanding.
That’s what I’m having a
hard time understanding.
Like where are these cameras
hard time understanding.
Like where are these cameras
that they’re capturing
Like where are these cameras
that they’re capturing
constantly capturing photos
that they’re capturing
constantly capturing photos
of my license plate?
They’re around streets.
Sometimes they’re high up,
They’re around streets.
Sometimes they’re high up,
but often they’re just a
Sometimes they’re high up,
but often they’re just a
little pole. You’ll see a
but often they’re just a
little pole. You’ll see a
poll. It’s got a little
little pole. You’ll see a
poll. It’s got a little
camera and it has a
poll. It’s got a little
camera and it has a
distinctive little solar
camera and it has a
distinctive little solar
panel on it. Is the typical
distinctive little solar
panel on it. Is the typical
ones that you see just
panel on it. Is the typical
ones that you see just
sort of by the side and
ones that you see just
sort of by the side and
the road. There are some
sort of by the side and
the road. There are some
that are hidden. For
the road. There are some
that are hidden. For
example, the DEA has license
that are hidden. For
example, the DEA has license
plate readers on a lot of
example, the DEA has license
plate readers on a lot of
highways. Even.
highways. Even. All over the
country, not just along the
highways. Even. All over the
country, not just along the
southern border.
southern border. And they
are often hidden in like
southern border. And they
are often hidden in like
orange traffic barrels. So
are often hidden in like
orange traffic barrels. So
it varies. But a lot of the
orange traffic barrels. So
it varies. But a lot of the
flock cameras are very
it varies. But a lot of the
flock cameras are very
identifiable. There’s sort
flock cameras are very
identifiable. There’s sort
of a poll and there’s a
identifiable. There’s sort
of a poll and there’s a
little camera with the
of a poll and there’s a
little camera with the
usual smoke dome and then
little camera with the
usual smoke dome and then
there’s. A solar panel on
usual smoke dome and then
there’s. A solar panel on
top of it. Wow. We have
there’s. A solar panel on
top of it. Wow. We have
two communities here
top of it. Wow. We have
two communities here
recently who ended their
two communities here
recently who ended their
contracts with flock amid
recently who ended their
contracts with flock amid
data sharing
data sharing concerns. And
those two communities are
data sharing concerns. And
those two communities are
right outside Minneapolis.
those two communities are
right outside Minneapolis.
The Brooklyn Park and
right outside Minneapolis.
The Brooklyn Park and
Columbia Heights. Will
The Brooklyn Park and
Columbia Heights. Will
that complicate them
Columbia Heights. Will
that complicate them
working with nearby
that complicate them
working with nearby
departments if they are not
working with nearby
departments if they are not
part of this network that
departments if they are not
part of this network that
other departments are a part
part of this network that
other departments are a part
of?
of? I don’t see any reason
why it has to be. You
of? I don’t see any reason
why it has to be. You
know, I think that the
why it has to be. You
know, I think that the
smarter and more
know, I think that the
smarter and more
professional police
smarter and more
professional police
leaders, they recognize
professional police
leaders, they recognize
that they serve their
leaders, they recognize
that they serve their
community and that they have
that they serve their
community and that they have
to reflect the community’s
community and that they have
to reflect the community’s
desires and values in
to reflect the community’s
desires and values in
what kind of especially
desires and values in
what kind of especially
advanced surveillance
what kind of especially
advanced surveillance
technology that’s very
advanced surveillance
technology that’s very
controversial, very brand
technology that’s very
controversial, very brand
new in the human experience
controversial, very brand
new in the human experience
of millions of years of
new in the human experience
of millions of years of
human beings. This is the
of millions of years of
human beings. This is the
first time the governments
human beings. This is the
first time the governments
had this kind of power.
had this kind of power. And
so we are seeing
had this kind of power. And
so we are seeing
around the country a lot of
so we are seeing
around the country a lot of
towns and cities that are
around the country a lot of
towns and cities that are
in many cases.
in many cases. Canceling
their flock count tracks or
in many cases. Canceling
their flock count tracks or
the contracts with other
their flock count tracks or
the contracts with other
vendors like Axon and
the contracts with other
vendors like Axon and
Motorola. And an even more
vendors like Axon and
Motorola. And an even more
questioning it and having
Motorola. And an even more
questioning it and having
debates about it. So it is
questioning it and having
debates about it. So it is
something that has really
debates about it. So it is
something that has really
entered the public awareness
something that has really
entered the public awareness
as people are becoming
entered the public awareness
as people are becoming
more and more aware of it.
And it’s, you know, it’s
generating controversy,
And it’s, you know, it’s
generating controversy,
as I said, on left and
generating controversy,
as I said, on left and
right for various reasons.
as I said, on left and
right for various reasons.
Yeah, it sparked a lot of
right for various reasons.
Yeah, it sparked a lot of
concern across the country.
Yeah, it sparked a lot of
concern across the country.
And here in Minnesota as
concern across the country.
And here in Minnesota as
more than 100 police
And here in Minnesota as
more than 100 police
departments here use it. Jay
more than 100 police
departments here use it. Jay
Stanley with the ACLU. I so
departments here use it. Jay
Stanley with the ACLU. I so
appreciate you joining us.
Stanley with the ACLU. I so
appreciate you joining us.
Thanks so much for having