# Show Topic: Flock Camera Backlash: Public Safety vs. Privacy
# You and The Law Podcast — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th7TdeVd-NU

podcast, [music] the one and only law
enforcement podcast that's tackling
critical policing and social justice
issues and provides insights into the
daily realities of policing with your
host, Chief Virgil Green.
Happened before, it's going to happen
again unless you demand transparency
within [music] surveillance.
Growing concern across Georgia tonight
about flock cameras. Several law
enforcement officials across the state
have been [music] charged with misusing
the surveillance tech in just the last
week. So, is it just a few bad apples or
[music] a symptom of a wider problem?
And that is where we start tonight on
the news at 10. I'm Russ Spencer
and I'm Christine Spiro. In the latest
instance, a Green County deputies
accused of using the flock database for
personal business.
And he's not alone. Within the last few
months, at least 10 other members of law
enforcement around the state have been
charged with the same. Our side's Rob
Durenzo joins us tonight with a closer
look at the growing concerns over those
Flock cameras. Rob,
that's right, guys. Good evening to you
both. I spoke with the co-founder of
Flock, which is headquartered right here
in Atlanta. She thinks these cases are a
small price to pay for all the crime
that the system solves. But the ACLU of
Georgia says this is a wake-up call.
Growing public distrust after several
officers have been charged across
Georgia for using the flock license
plate tracking database for personal
reasons.
It has happened before and it's going to
happen again unless you demand
transparency within surveillance.
In Green County, Deputy Kenisha Goss was
fired on Tuesday charged with misusing
the flock system. Earlier this week in
Albany, five police officers. Last month
in Cherokee County, a lieutenant,
sergeant, and deputy were all charged
with violating their oath.
In this case, um, where misuse happened,
the technology itself was not creating
the misuse. It was it was human beings.
Paige Todd, the Atlanta based company's
co-founder, says many of the recent
arrests have come as a result of
departments using their new audit
assistance tool, which flags unusual
searches.
The best way to prevent misuse is now
every member of law enforcement out
there knows that this audit exists. It
uses AI.
And that's why information security
analyst Peter TR says this is so
unnerving for so many because this
network of cameras has the ability to
track a lot about you which become
searchable in a nationwide database.
It becomes a privacy and security issue.
So your whereabouts, where you shopped,
your name, your address.
Across the country, there's a growing
push back against Flock cameras with
dozens of communities ending their
contracts with the company over privacy
concerns. Jeopardizing your civil rights
and civil liberties is never just an
unfortunate event. You have
constitutional rights, especially your
right to privacy. And the question is
who polices the police.
But Todd believes the good her company
has enabled cops to do has outweighed
the bad.
We I believe solve about a million
crimes with our technology. 10,000
missing people have gone home because of
it. Um this feels like pretty small in
comparison.
And guys, meanwhile, there are dozens of
videos circulating on social media
explaining to people how they can break,
disable, or tear down these flock
cameras, but it did happen in Barrow
County. The sheriff there says it
happened to three flock cameras, and he
reminded people it is a felony. Live in
Midtown, Rob Deenzo, Fox 5 News.
Well, it's an issue that's not going
away. Rob, thanks very much.
I want to welcome everybody to another
episode of You and the Law podcast. I'm
the host of the show, Chief Virgil
Green. And as always, I want to thank
you for taking the time to tune in and
join us for definitely another
informative topic um on you and the Law
podcast. And just with that opening of
the podcast, um, as we talk about the
the Flock camera systems
and the benefits and now the concerns
that the public has, uh, with some
recent incidents that have occurred.
Uh, we're going to have a conversation
tonight about this technology. Um
technology has trans transformed modern
policing uh from body cameras to to
drones and automatic uh license plate
readers. [clears throat] Today officers
have more investigative tools than ever
before. But with greater technology
comes greater responsibility. Uh recent
allegations involving officers accused
of improperly accessing flock system
cameras have sparked concerns across the
country.
uh is this simply misconduct by a few
individuals or does it reveal a larger
need to a larger need for stronger
oversight and accountability?
So tonight we'll separate the technology
from the people using it and asking an
important question. How do we protect
both public safety and the public trust?
And as you've seen in that video, uh
there's been a lot of uh concerns across
the country, especially in Georgia,
where officers have been uh arrested and
charged with misusing
uh this uh technology for their
benefits. Uh some have tracked um you
know people that they've met, some have
tracked um people that they've dated and
and some have used the system to uh for
other personal uh gains. And so uh
throughout this podcast I want you know
if you have any questions or any
comments definitely put them into the
chat and I'm going to put that up on the
screen. And so um you know ask your
questions in the chat and tell me what
what are your concerns if you have any
about uh this technology and how this
technology that you know of is working
in your community. Uh because the
technology is here to stay. Uh it has
definitely benefit uh a lot of uh
agencies and in a lot of communities uh
finding loved ones or even finding
murder suspects. And so throughout the
the next hour, we're going to definitely
talk about uh the positive side of this
technology and also look at some of the
the negative things that have happened
uh and ask some questions as to what are
some agencies doing to prevent some of
these things from happening. And I'll
have to say, you know, when I came up
with this um topic to talk about, uh the
flock camera systems, um I definitely
noticed a lot of uh some agencies,
especially in Oklahoma, who uh had put
out some social media post explaining to
their communities how they were using
the flock camera systems and the
benefits of it and uh some of the
concerns that people are just generally
having around the use of this
technology. So, as tonight as we talk
about the flock camera backlash
um uh versus uh the public safety and
the privacy,
um a lot of people are going to say,
well, see, we this is something that we
said was going to happen when this
technology was first introduced. The the
technology has been around for
a number of years. It has definitely
solved a lot of crimes. It has
definitely found a lot of people, but
now the technology is being used for
things that it shouldn't be used for.
And the question is going to be um does
Flock have some some systems in place
that agencies can use uh to do some real
time audits to make sure that officers
are not utilize or or you using this uh
data for their own personal uh benefits.
And you know there's going to be a lot
of there's definitely a lot of
conversations around the country
especially from the ACLU and other
organizations that are questioning this
type of of technology and the privacy
which again you you have some people
going to say well hey this is another
big brother looking over but you know as
someone who has been in law enforcement
uh as long as I have and I've talked
about the positive sides of the flock
camera systems. U now it is just coming
out that there are some things that
officers can do um to uh violate some
policies that are in place to prevent
these things from happening. And again,
one of the questions going to kind of
come out, well, who's policing the
police? Uh what safeguards are there?
You know, are you know, supervisors able
to in real time go in and check? Are
there uh certain safeguards that are
being put in place that that an officer
or an investigator has to get some type
of supervisor's permission to even log
into the system to investigate uh
certain crimes. But again, it's
definitely uh alarming when you hear
that, you know, more than a handful of
of officers, especially in the state of
Georgia, have been arrested and are now
facing charges and they definitely have
been terminated from those agencies. But
the question is going to come out, okay,
well, how did these things happen in the
first place? And so that's some of the
the questions that we're going to be
talking about uh throughout the hour as
to how did these things happen and why.
But again, the technology is there for
the benefit of the agency, for the
benefit of the public. Uh but also you
do have people who are abusing this
technology and the technology is
definitely advanced outside of the
in the public uh space because you are
seeing a lot of uh HOAs, homeowners
associations who are now uh purchasing
these flock cameras to put into their
neighborhoods. And you're also seeing
the cameras uh show up in parking lots
such as your Home Depot and your Lowe's
uh depot uh businesses. And so there
again, it's it's it's how these agencies
are able to
share this information uh when they're
looking for certain uh suspects who've
been involved in crimes. And so, you
know, one of the things again, you know,
this is not to uh criticize the
the technology that Flock has um has
presented to the to law enforcement and
to the public, but also a question about
when the technology is is being misused
or even when the technology is probably
used in the right way. But there's been
cases where individuals have been
accused of committing certain crimes
that they have not committed. Um, but
there again, it's it's technology. And
so there's going to be some some
breakdowns in the system as to how did
these things really happened. And so I'm
going to, you know, show share some
videos with the listening audience
tonight. But again, I want to remind you
that if you have any questions or
comments, put them into the chat about
how do you feel about this technology
and the benefits of it or let me know
what you don't think that the benefits
are because again there are benefits and
there are definitely some concerns that
the public have about this technology.
And so the the next video that I want to
show, it comes out of uh Knoxville,
Tennessee, where a uh an elderly man was
was located by using the flock cameras.
And so this is just an example of how
the technology is definitely uh working
to benefit law enforcement and to get uh
individuals back home safely to their
families. is on the alcohol highway
[laughter]
over on uh UT campus over that way.
KPD soon got a hit thanks to Flock
cameras, a type of surveillance video
that detects license plates, also known
as LPR technology.
We run the truck through that LPR
system. And uh fortunately, we're able
to get a quick hit on uh the vehicle. We
found him in the area on Neand Drive.
Thankful that her husband was found
safely and quickly, this wife is
thrilled that this kind of technology is
being used within the community.
And I didn't realize that they had that
type of technology. I was just amazed
and shocked, you know, how they just
maneuver and how they could track him
down like that, you know. So, I'll tell
anybody that's
that is really something.
In Knoxville, Erikica Lunsford, WVT
News.
And Scott Erlin with KPD says this is
the second missing person that they've
been able to find with these flock
cameras. And they've also recovered more
than $900,000
worth of stolen property using the LPR
technology.
Well, in in in that video uh in that
news clip, you you definitely see how
the LPR cameras were able to to find a
missing uh husband uh in a very short
period of time. And you know, one of the
things that I've said uh when I've
talked to [clears throat] community uh
members about the technology because
they they do have a lot of there is a
lot of concern about it. But one of the
things that I've talked about is stories
just like this here is that when you do
have uh an elderly population who are
still driving vehicles uh they may be
suffering from you know dementia or
Alzheimer's
uh but they're but they feel that they
can still get out and and drive to the
store or drive um wherever they need to
go. And we've seen cases to where
individuals have crossed state lines and
went into another state and even
multiple states um and have been missing
for for days. Um and I have to say, you
know, when this technology did not
exist,
you know, we relied upon the signs that
everybody has seen on on the interstates
where it says an Amber Alert. um that
Amber Alert is is put out uh to let
people know, hey, we're looking for this
vehicle. But can you imagine, you know,
say a decade ago when this technology
did not exist. Um and and if it did
exist, it was very limited in certain
parts of the country and in some
communities there were just so much of a
public uh concern about it. a lot of
police departments did not move forward
and their local governments did not
approve uh of this purchase. And so, but
here's a situation where, you know, a um
uh a wife reported a husband missing. Uh
his license plate was entered into the
system and a flot camera
had an alert that was sent to that
agency for them to to find uh the
vehicle. And oftent times uh every s
this is done in real time and and oftent
times officers are able to locate those
vehicles uh in the same area where where
cameras have hit uh made a hit on them.
And so uh I want to thank Mr. Hollis for
tuning in and joining uh you and the law
podcast tonight. Uh but again hopefully
you can uh uh add some uh some comments
to to the uh to the chat tonight. Uh but
uh because again uh these cameras exist
uh in a lot of states u pretty much
almost every state they exist in in
every community and so I know Mr. the
holler in Arkansas. So, they may exist
in in in the communities that that you
live in, but but but again, uh we want
to have just a an honest conver an open
conversation and dialogue about this
technology and why it is so why this
technology is so important to have in in
our communities. And again, that story
right there where
a u a wife was able to she reported her
husband missing and the law enforcement
agencies were able to recover uh find
him and and get him home safely. And and
so that is just another example of why
there's been such a
a positive experience with these uh
camera systems, but also there's been
some negative uh concerns about it. And
you know, maybe a lot of people who are
listening to the podcast tonight, you're
kind of like, okay, well, where are
these cameras located at? If you are
driving down uh your a major street and
you if you look up and you see a just a
single black pole with a with with a
device on it that looks like it's uh has
a solar power and it has a little camera
on it. That's most likely an LPR camera.
Now, I do know uh especially in the
state of Oklahoma, u Oklahoma went to a
system to where it can identify uh tags
that uh do not have uh insurance. And
so, uh the owners of those vehicles will
get a a letter in the mail letting them
know that there was a hit on their
vehicle uh and their vehicle does not
have insurance on it. And so again, the
technology is being used in in various
different ways, but also here's an
example of where uh people are are who
don't have car insurance or they may
have let their car insurance, you know,
uh go past due and they don't renew
their car insurance. Well, there are
these cameras that are set out
throughout the uh the Oklahoma uh city
area and even in other parts of Oklahoma
where individuals are getting
notifications that hey, you need to get
insurance and if you don't get
insurance, you can get insurance from
the state. But again, there's a lot of u
concerns and and some misinformation
about what these cameras do. And and
I'll take, you know, just don't take my
word for it. Uh type in Google Flock
cameras and that information is going to
be readily there for you to be able to
read what the cameras can be used for
and what they're not used for. And I
think a lot of people have some concerns
that the cameras are being used to uh to
track people, you know, images. No, the
cameras are not being utilized to as as
facial recognition. It it's not the
cameras uh as you're driving down the
street,
the these cameras are taking pictures of
every single vehicle. And let's say
there's a vehicle that's been uh
involved in a homicide in a in a whole
another state and this vehicle is a a
vehicle that law enforcement is looking
for to question the individuals in that
vehicle and and you get a hit off of
that vehicle. Now they know, hey, there
was a uh in and actually I'm going show
a news clip where a a murder was
committed in another state, but the
vehicle was found in another state and
law enforcement officers were able to
make an arrest on an individual who was
uh involved in a in a in a murder uh in
another state. And so again, the
technology is is definitely there to
benefit law enforcement, but as we seen
in the first clip, uh the technology is
being utilized by officers for all the
wrong reasons. Um and it's definitely
caused a lot of concerns within in
within the public. And so one of the uh
and I'm gonna show this video because
again uh I think it's it's one of the
things I would like to say be before I
show this video is that
law enforcement agencies definitely need
to be transparent with their communities
about this technology.
uh some agencies probably did not have
community meetings to say that we're
bringing this technology into our
communities. Some smaller communities
have definitely had public forums,
public discussions about utilizing this
technology and they got some input
whether it was positive or negative and
oftent times it has been more negative
and there's been a lot of push back from
it and so you you see where these
agencies don't move forward with the
technology but there may be a a
neighboring uh jurisdiction that does
have the technology and So again, there
are just a lot of questions about it.
And so I want to get to one of the
comments in the in the chat by Mr.
Hollis who puts in the chat that u you
know I thought police had to have a
reason to flag uh someone's license
plate. That type of policing can can
very well be used to racially profile a
person of color. You know, Mr. Hollis,
I'm going to say I think you know one of
the things that that that is a concern
especially in the black community, but
you know the these cameras are not
taking pictures of of a person's face.
They're just taking a picture of a of a
vehicle and a license plate. And so at
no time is there an image of a
individual person that will let officers
know that that car is dri driven by any
race of a person. It's just a camera
that is uh catching the image of the
vehicle as well as the license plate of
the vehicle. And for those who uh travel
through throughout Oklahoma, uh Kansas,
uh who travel a turnpike,
uh these cameras are there they're these
they have cameras throughout the
turnpike that take pictures of your
vehicle and take pictures of your tags.
And so, but these cameras, those cameras
are totally different from
the flot cameras, but you do see a lot
of states, uh, Texas, um, and, uh, many
other states who are putting these
cameras out on the interstates because
they see that there's a benefit that
they may get a get an alert on a vehicle
that's traveling down a major
interstate. this uh it may be a person
who is missing uh from from a halfway
across the country but they're in Texas
or it may be a person who is uh wanted
for questioning of a homicide in another
state uh or it may be somebody who is
who is involved with with uh some kind
of child molestation. And so, but again,
the cameras are not being
used to identify a person's race. Uh,
and I think that's one of the uh
misconceptions that the public has about
uh these flock cameras is that they can
be utilized to racially profile people,
and that's just not the case. Um, you
know, and people are going to say, well,
how do you know they're not being used
to racially profile anyone? because
again, uh the cameras are taking a
picture of the vehicle as it's passing
and it's a picture of the of the rear
license plate um and uh the making model
of the car and so you cannot see inside
of the vehicle as to what race that that
individual person is. But that is
definitely a good question to ask
because there is a lot of concerns about
uh can these cameras be used for racial
profiling. And some people are going to
say, well, you know what? If an officer
uh utilizes that information, they got
your tag number. Uh they got the the
making, model of the vehicle. Now they
can search and they can tell, you know,
what race you are, where you live at.
And again, that's some of the concern
that that has been raised, especially by
some, you know, like the ACLU, the
NAACP, and some other organizations
because officers are misusing this
information. And again, it's it's not
the technology that's being misused.
It's the people who are tapping into the
system who are misusing that technology.
Uh, and I have to say, you know, once
again, a lot of people are going to go
back and say, well, we had these
concerns
uh many years ago and everybody said no,
there were safeguards that were put in
place that would prevent these things
from happening. Well, if that's the
case, uh what oversight do police
departments have in place and what
policies do they have in place and what
auditing system do they have in place to
prevent these things from happening? Uh
because again, I think that's one of the
the the main conversations about what
safeguards have been put in place. Uh
but you know, some people are going to
say, well, now these crimes have been
committed. Now these agencies uh have
put in place some some safeguards that
would prevent that from happening or
maybe even Flock has come up with some
new technology that the agencies can
utilize to uh to have real time audits
uh being done on these systems. But
clearly
there has to be some uh some steps taken
to really prevent uh these things from
happening from for people to feel like
especially the public that their privacy
is not being violated by law
enforcement. And also the question is
going to kind of come up, okay, well if
these cameras are on private properties,
who have access to the cameras? Do does
the private property have access to the
cameras? Do law enforcement have access
to the cameras? What other people have
access to the cameras? Because again,
if an HOA says, "Hey, we want to have
these cameras put on our properties in
our homeowners association,
who has access to those cameras? Is it
does Flock have access to them? Does
somebody with the homeowners association
have access to them? or are that
information being shared with law
enforcement? And so again, I think there
has to be a lot of transparency
with the public about how this
technology is being utilized. You you
can always talk about the positive sides
of any technology whether it's you know
dash cameras or incar cameras or
whatever it may be drones there's always
a lot of positive to to those
technologies but there there's there's
this percentage of of negative things
happening and people are going to say
well let's just say this is only 5% of
of of what's happening well that 5% %
can be a very large number. Uh it really
shouldn't be even 1% but again this
technology is being utilized for other
purposes than what it should not be
utilized for. And so I want to share
with you here's this next video that I
want to share uh with those who are
listening as to how the flock cameras
were able to to solve a uh a murder
investigation. Governor Basher asked
Kuckians to pray for both families.
New tonight, Lexington police say flock
cameras helped lead police to a wanted
murder suspect from Michigan. Heavy on
Burell was arrested on Tuesday.
Lexington police say they worked with US
Marshals to arrest Burell. They say the
flocked license plate readers helped
find a vehicle connected to Burell here
in Lexington. Lexington installed 25
flock cameras back in April across the
city. And over the summer, police
released an update on how those cameras
have been used by investigators. Police
say the license plate readers have
helped recover 26 stolen vehicles and
find two missing people as well as
helped out in about a dozen other
investigations. Okay.
So, just as we seen in that news clip,
how the technology was used to locate a
person who was wanted uh out of the
state of Michigan, out of Michigan who
was actually in Kentucky. And so again,
if that technology did not exist in that
that community or in in Kentucky, um
then this person who had committed this
crime would probably still be uh
wouldn't have been caught. But again,
that's just another example of how the
technology
is benefiting law enforcement and how
the technology
um is able to find individuals who are
who have been involved in some very
serious crimes uh across state lines.
And so again, I think it's really
important to to highlight the the the
good of the technology, uh, but also
talk about the concerns that the public
has about the the the transparency of
the technology. And what are agencies
doing now to to show to to let the
public know, hey, yeah, we have uh done
some internal audits. We've been able to
see where officers have misused the
technology and we've been able to
dismiss those officers. They're now
facing charges. They've been arrested.
But but there again, it kind of goes
back to uh the conversation that a lot
of people have said before,
how did these things happen? Because
again with technology, everybody's going
to find a way uh to abuse this
technology and to use it for their own
benefit. And and so uh again, this is
it's just a growing concern. But how do
we uh make sure that these cameras are
are being utilized throughout every
parts of the country for the best
interest of the public. Now, this next
video that I want to show is going to
come out of of of Minnesota. Um, it's an
area that I'm very familiar with. Um,
and when I when I saw this, you know, I
was like, okay, these are things that
are are raising the concerns of of the
public because
the situation could have definitely
turned uh more serious uh depending upon
how the actions of the officers and also
the action of the of the driver of the
vehicle. And so this situation took
place in Plymouth, Minnesota. Uh a sub a
sub suburb city that I'm very familiar
with. Uh lived in the Plymouth,
Minnesota in this this co where um this
incident happened. I had uh definitely
uh shopped at this store uh quite often.
A local automotive journalist says he
spent days unknowingly being tracked by
police after license plate cameras
mistakenly identified the test vehicle
he was driving as stolen. Kent's going
to break down how all this happened and
why this story is sparking a much bigger
conversation about surveillance
right after returning a package at the
Kohl's near his Plymouth home.
Hello sir, can you come out to me
please? Sure. Joel Federer,
is it just you and you and the wife?
And his wife,
both of us, both of us
were suddenly surrounded.
I was parked here. There was a car here,
so I couldn't just drive away.
Even a week and a half later, he still
can't believe it.
And I legitimately looked at my wife and
I was like, I wasn't even speeding.
Like, THERE'S NOTHING I DID WRONG.
That certainly didn't stop things from
getting tense.
Are you armed at all?
No.
No. Okay. Is this your car?
Uh, it's complicated. Can I explain it?
Joel is director of content and product
at the drive.com, meaning the Land Rover
he was driving wasn't his, but he was
testdriving it for work.
I have paperwork cuz I can show you that
I drive this for the week.
Okay,
it's owned by Jaguar Land Rover. If you
run the plates, it's owned by Jaguar
Land Rover. They own it.
Little did he know Plymouth police had
already run them.
The reason you have four cops here is
because your license plate is registered
as stolen license plates in our system.
Are you serious? 15 years doing this
job, I've never had this. This is
insane. That's because the plates were
flagged by an emerging surveillance
network of flock cameras. And not just
before this stop
hit on our license plate readers the
other day, too. So,
are you serious? Cameras that read my
license plate now twice in the last
couple days and it picked up and flagged
it for the cops. You guys been searching
for this car.
Unreal.
And it turns out the issue at the heart
of the stop really wasn't real. Plymouth
police released him after more than an
hour, telling us today, quote, "When the
license plate was reported as stolen in
California, it was improperly entered in
the National Crime Information Center
database with incomplete numbers.
Manufacturer plate for New Jersey has
two big numbers, two little numbers, and
three big letters." Okay, 3410
DTM was my plate. But what got flagged
was 34 DTM. In a statement from Flock,
the company wrote, "We take incidents
like this seriously and are looking
closely at what happened." Flock system
is highly accurate and situations like
this are rare. That said, an alert
should be one part of an investigation,
not the whole basis for a stop.
I think the issue is is that a human
error got amplified because this
technology doesn't have enough
guardrails in place. The police officers
that day told me there were four plates,
including mine, in the state of
Minnesota, they were hitting on 34 DTM
on flock cameras. Four. Range Rover told
me there's about 15 Range Rovers in the
Eastwine fleet that had some combination
of 34XX DTM. They had to freeze the
whole fleet until this whole got figured
out because other people could get
pulled over. Might not ended the same.
This is the craziest story.
Legitimately,
there are so many concerns here. I mean,
I'm thankful my kids were in the car.
I'm thankful the cops had the patience
to listen and they didn't come in hot
and angry, guns drawn. I mean, someone
could have got shot, right?
Again, Joel is relieved that concern
didn't become reality. But just a few
weeks prior, he did a whole podcast on
the drive.com about the many privacy
concerns that can arise for car owners
when our local governments pay private
companies like Flock for cameras that
can tap into national databases and
track you with AI. A few days later,
that concern certainly became real,
Jana,
as is her his concerns about guard
rails. Like all of the stuff about
privacy seems to be moving too fast
again. Yeah, that's his whole point
because he says the database itself was
where the error is, but he doesn't
understand why the flock cameras didn't
catch that little number that would have
prevented all of this.
Just wild stuff. Doesn't look good for
Flock. Thanks so much, Kent. We'll be
right back.
Oh, okay. Hopefully I've got my mic
unmuted. So, probably a lot of what I
just said over the last couple of
minutes probably was not heard, but let
me kind of go back and u uh read a
comment that's in the chat. uh from Mr.
Hollis who stated that indeed it is a
great technology to locate uh people who
suffers from mental illness. Uh he also
states in the city of Oyola, Arkansas, a
ranking uh police officer used uh its
investigative computer system to get
some kind of embarrassing information on
his neighbors and that cop was
disciplined but should have been fired.
Uh he bas he says that I conducted that
search personally myself. So yeah, there
are there will be cops who abuse their
powers and I think that's one of the
main concerns that the public has is
about the abuse of these systems and uh
and how uh this technology is being uh
misused and so u but again there is a
lot of positive conversation a positive
things that have happened with this
technology but again um the technology
ology is definitely uh been abused and
but and as we talk about this
conversation tonight about uh the fly
camera backlash and the public concerns
about privacy, you know, one of the the
the the things that I want to ask the
the listening audience, uh you know,
why uh what policies would you like to
see uh police departments imple
implement um that would prevent some of
these things from happening. Uh because
again, it this kind of goes back to the
oversight of this technology and how
this technology uh is definitely there
to benefit the community, but also how
that technology can prevent uh police
officers uh you know, somebody who's
investigating the crime
from using it to uh to check up on
somebody. And uh and clearly there have
been cases to where that has definitely
happened. And so um this next video that
I want to uh play to you um this is
something a concern that uh local
elected officials have addressed. But
one of the things that kind of concerned
me with this story was was that this
officer had been disciplined
uh for violating the the very policy
that and then he turns around and he
does it again. And so again,
uh, agencies really need to be very
aggressive when it comes to,
uh, officers misusing this technology
because it's, it goes back to the public
trust. The public is going to say, "We
don't trust you to police yourselves."
Because when these incidents do happen
and we find out about it uh, months or
years later that, yeah, this officer was
caught, but he was disciplined, but he's
back on the job. So what would prevent
him or her from not doing the same thing
again? And so again, I think that is uh
a concern that the public has.
Some of those flock security cameras
across our area are not being used in
the way in which they were designed as
crime surveillance.
Yeah, that is what they're supposed to
be used for. Over the past week, we've
been reporting on flock cameras being
spray painted over and vandalized. Some
even have been sold off. Now in
Pasadena, a council member tells ABC
13's Briana Willis an officer is accused
of misusing the Flock camera system.
Briana?
Yeah, Erica and Gina. The council member
telling me the officer resigned here
just last week following an ongoing
investigation. He says that
investigation reveals the officer used
cameras just like this one not far from
the police department to stalk a fellow
female officer here. Now, according to
Pasadena City Council member Emanuel
Gueredto, he says the first
investigation into the officer misusing
the cameras was last year in March. He
says that officer was suspended and
later reinstated in August 2025. But
Geredto says the next investigation,
again, also including allegations the
officer stalked another female police
officer in the department with the flock
camera system, started in January. The
officer involved has not yet been
charged with the crime, but Guerrero
says he resigned just last week and says
he supports the use of block cameras to
deter crime in the city, but not this.
There's laws that protect public trust.
Um, and the second allegation was uh the
stalking and following of a female
police officer and the the stalking or
following any officer is a felony. So,
there's two felonies at once. The
misusage of the flock system is a m a
misuse of public resources by by this by
one law enforcement individual.
Yeah. And I did of course reach out to
the officer involved, but his attorney
says they declined to comment at this
time. Have also reached out to the
Pasadena Police Department multiple
times today. We walked in, we called, we
emailed, and have texted, but so far we
have not heard back. We're live in
Pasadena. I'm Brianna Willis, ABC13
Eyewitness News.
And just as we've seen in that news
clip, you know, you got an officer who
is abusing the system to track one of
his own uh fellow colleagues. And so
that's real that's a concern is the fact
that uh you know, even if it's someone
in the general public, it's still a
concern. But why would this officer
utilize this flock camera system to
track a female colleague uh that he may,
you know, be involved with? He's just
trying to find out, you know, where
she's going and where she's at. And I
think some people want to uh will ask
this question. Okay. Well, does the
cameras track a vehicle? Well, the
cameras will definitely show uh where a
vehicle has been traveling throughout
the city and and officers will be able
to go back and utilize that information
to see uh what side of the city that
vehicle was on, what neighborhoods that
vehicle uh passed through, and they will
be able to, and again, this is supposed
to be used for an investigative
uh tactic. You know, let's say you're
investigating a homicide and here you
have a uh investigators are tracking
that vehicle. So when they do locate the
pe the people who are involved in this
uh homicide investigation.
Now, these investigators are able to to
know how honest and truthful those
individuals are, but they can also
besides using cell phone tower data,
they're able to use these uh flight
camera systems to track that vehicle's
movement and to say, "Okay, well, you
were in the area at the time of this
homicide. Maybe you came back uh into
that area where this homicide took place
at." And so again, it is supposed to be
used for investigative purposes, but it
is it is not being used uh for that
purpose at all. And as we just saw in
that video, um and so one of the
questions that uh that's put in the chat
uh by Mr. Holly says, "I believe there
are already policies and state laws to
govern misconduct related to misuse of
department technology. The question I
have is uh why do these cops feel so
comfortable misusing the technology? You
know, Mr. Hollis, I think one of the
things is that, you know, they know that
they're probably there's not that much
oversight by their uh supervisors and
that they could probably go in and and
and do some they can uh delete what they
were looking for. Again,
uh there should be safeguards in place
and again there should be alerts anytime
a officer or detective or somebody is
conducting a uh some type of a search of
that of a of a of a license plate
that a supervisor or even all the way up
to the police chief. There should be
some type of notification that Flock um
is has in place that these agencies
should be able to uh use to say, "Okay,
well, uh
so and so detective or so and so officer
just uh logged into the system and
they're tracking a certain vehicle." U
and now you can go and say, "Okay, well,
is there a a business purpose? Is there
an investigative purpose that you're uh
using uh to log into the system and and
again I I you know this profession is
not a micromanaging profession but at
the same time you definitely need to put
in some some uh some safeguards to
prevent the misuse of the technology and
again Mr. And I just think that there
are some police officers they know uh
when these audits are being done. And
you know in the video that I showed
earlier uh from Georgia, there were
supervisors who were arrested. And so
again, this is kind this goes back to uh
a lot of questions around the the trust
uh and when you have high ranking law
enforcement officers who are misusing
this technology and even all the way up
to some police chiefs around the country
have been uh arrested and charged with
misusing the technology. Uh I have to
say that some of those uh uh chiefs have
been at at much smaller departments and
not larger departments. But again, there
has to be some safeguards uh put in
place for uh officers not to feel that
they uh have just um free uh free reigns
to to log into the system and to track a
vehicle, especially to track somebody
that they are maybe dating or tracking
somebody that they may have pulled over
and that they have that they're trying
to get to So again, uh this is why the
public has so much concerns about the
use of this technology and why the
technology continues to be used. And
again, I go back to the the technology
has definitely aided law enforcement
in solving crimes, finding missing
people and and but also now it is coming
out that the technology is being misused
for all the wrong reasons. And this next
video that I'm going to show you is a
clear example of of somebody having to
prove to law enforcement that that they
did not commit a crime and that uh and
it was it was really disturbing to see
that here is how the cameras are being
wrongfully used and how this lady in in
uh in Denver was being accused of
committing a crime.
Hey, developing this morning, a Denver
woman says that she was wrongly accused
of a crime after police told her they
tracked her car using flock cameras.
Police went to her door accusing her of
stealing a package and served her a
court summon.
Croissana
now saying she was never in the area of
the robbery to begin with. Fox 31's
Jared Dean joins us live from Coline
Valley this morning. Good morning,
Jared.
Yeah, good morning. Yeah, Christina Eler
was at home, heard somebody at her door,
went to her door, and found a police
officer from the Coline Police
Department with a summon telling her you
took a package that was valued at $25 in
Belmar. We have you on doorbell camera
and flock camera taking this and she
said she was never in the area and
actually proved her innocence with
evidence of her own. Now, that evidence
included dashboard camera footage of her
driving that day in another area at that
time and used Google Maps to show a log
of her location to prove her innocence
to the police officer. Elser says the
officer denied reviewing her video,
telling her it wasn't worth it and
quote, "You have not been honest with
me, so I am not going to extend you any
courtesy of showing you a video I don't
need to." And then after this, Elser got
in contact with the chief of police,
sent the evidence, and her summons was
voided. But she says she didn't need to
prove her innocence in the first place.
You know, we have cameras in that town,
and you can't get a breath of fresh air
in or out of that place without us
knowing. Correct.
They need to be used properly
and be used with caution in a
conversation versus we're now going to
use this to accuse anybody and
everybody.
Now, we reached out to the Coline Police
Department. We did not get a response
from them. Now, Alicer says she
encourages those in the community and
her neighbors to get cameras of their
own so they don't have to go through
what she went through. Live in
Littleton, Jared Dean, Fox 31.
Yeah, I mean, we talked about flock
cameras yesterday in Aurora. That was
your story, Jared. And now you're
talking about a town Coline Valley as
well. So, a lot of talk about this
program. Thanks.
You know, once again, here is another
example of an agency not being
transparent because again, you got a uh
an officer standing at uh at this uh
person's door accusing him of a crime
that they did not commit and pretty much
basically told the lady that he really
didn't care what she had to say. U and
this was all over, as you heard, a $25
uh package that was stolen off of
somebody's front porch. Uh, but the
officer was was uh pretty
uh verbally uh I won't say just overly
aggressive, but definitely made the uh
the lady feel uncomfortable uh because
she was being accused of a crime and
that she was being summoned to appear in
court over a package of $25. Um and so
she had her own uh incar camera. she had
uh was able to to prove that that was
not her. But again, just another example
of why the public uh has so much
concerns about police departments
utilizing this technology and how this
technology is being abused and and and
so uh that is just uh you know and again
I think you know when people see that
see this type of um video footage and
and people hear the conversations around
the concerns concerns with the flock
cameras and the backlash that the public
has. And again, it's not so much the the
company flock. It is it is the police
departments. And I want to make that
very clear. This conversation is not
negative against the flock itself. It is
it is a conversation about how the
police departments are abusing this
technology that Flock has um
put together uh for the benefit of the
public and how Flock is
is been able to share with different uh
communities around the country that by
having these cameras there is definitely
uh a much more benefit to having the
cameras than it is not to have these
cameras uh in your community. Uh but
this last video that I want to show is
uh is comes from um uh LA and here is
one of the largest police departments in
the country and they're ending their uh
their agreement with Flock uh to uh have
these cameras placed around uh the city
of Los Angeles.
Let's get to the breaking news right
now. Now, the LAPD is ending its
agreement with Flock Safety. Flock
operates surveillance cameras throughout
Los Angeles. And I News reporter Tim
Pullium is live in Echo Park with the
breaking details. Tim.
Yeah, David. LAPD uses flock cameras
around the city. But today, the
department announced it is allowing its
contract and agreement with the company
to expire starting tomorrow. Now, flock
cameras are used to take images of
vehicles and license plates on the road.
LAPD says that it helps them in tracking
down suspects involved in a crime. Now,
some people in the community like that
surveillance. Others say that it
violates their privacy. LAPD says that
concern is what led to its decision.
Well, this contract's not being renewed
because of uh serious concerns around
civil liberty and civil rights issues.
um particularly around privacy and the
data that's being collected from these
cameras. So the LAPD had to make a
difficult decision of uh continuing in
this case discontinuing using flock
services until we can get those data
privacy security and sharing concerns
ironed out through a contractual
relationship.
LAPD's contract with Flock ends tomorrow
and their tech department is not sure if
the cameras will still be recording.
LAPD does LAPD doesn't own the cameras.
In many cases, they are owned by
organizations and homeowners
associations who have allowed police and
the city to have access to them. Now,
LAPD says it is having ongoing
conversations with the company in
revising the agreement. They want
updated language around privacy and the
storing of data to be included in this
new agreement. I've reached out to Flock
for a comment about this and I am still
awaiting a response. Tim Pullium, ABC7
Eyewitness News.
Now,
and we just uh heard in that news clip
here, here is a major city who has some
a major city, a police department who
has some concerns uh surrounding the uh
the techn the technology and how they
are uh kind of pulling away from from
the uh from the flock camera systems
until there are some safeguards is put
in place. And I have to say this is um
you know not something that a lot of
people would expect to see out of a out
of a major city uh such as uh LAPD do
but again I think with everything that
has happened u they want to make sure
that there's some safeguard that's put
in place either by flock or some
safeguard that they're being put in
place by by the agency
because again um there has to be a lot
conversations around the protection of
this uh of this data. U flock has stated
that this data is is after 30 days
nobody has access to the data the data
just goes away. Uh but again how many
you know let's say your vehicle is
traveling uh in uh past a block camera
multiple times a day but how long is
that data how long is your tag
information stored into that database?
Uh again let's just say you at day 29 or
day 30 you pass right through another
camera and now your your your tag is is
back in the system. And so again,
there's a lot of questions that the
public has about the system and how it's
being utilized, especially if it is, you
know, vehicle tags are being or continue
to be um tracked. Uh and again, it's
it's not a person that's being tracked.
Let's let's be very clear about that.
these uh LPR cameras are not tracking a
a person, but they're tracking uh the
the vehicle and the tag of that vehicle.
Uh because again, as as we've talked
about uh throughout this podcast,
there's definitely a lot of positive
things that have happened, but there's
also definitely a lot of negative things
that have happened with this technology.
And I stated at the at the beginning of
the of the podcast, I I noticed uh this
past week, especially leading up to
having this conversation tonight about u
the the flock camera system, that I've
seen agencies in Oklahoma, I've seen
agencies in other other parts of the
country who have taken to social media
to explain why they are number one, why
the cameras exist in the communities and
the benefits of those. and they've also
addressed some of the concerns that they
uh that other people are are talking
about with the the misuse of the
cameras. But I think one of the main
things that really needs to be discussed
is the fact that you know when when
these cameras are being misused.
uh what are agencies immediately doing
to address those and and up to
terminating and up to making sure that
criminal charges are being brought
against people who are misusing the
technology because and also being very
uh uh transparent with the public about
it when you do find these things happen.
Don't just keep that information
internally, but share that with the
public so the public knows that you do
have safeguards in place because the the
last thing we need to see is where the
public does not trust uh their local
police department. And again, there's a
lot of good positive to this technology
and hopefully,
you know, agencies will put some
safeguards in place and they will work
with Flock to uh put some things in
place internally to where we don't
continue to see or hear about the misuse
of this technology from around the
country. Um, but again, I want to thank
everybody for tuning in and for the the
comments that were putting into the chat
and and as we talked about the flock
camera backlash and the public concerns
about privacy uh is not going to go
away. But again, hopefully uh in the
coming weeks and coming months, in the
coming year that more uh safeguards will
be put in place uh to prevent some of
these things from happening. Uh I got
one other comment in the chat from Mr.
Hollis. Again, technology is very useful
in preventing and solving crimes. But to
deter this misconduct going forward,
there needs to be uh severe penalties
for police officers who misuse uh the
technology. If conduct is found to be a
pattern or uh repetitive, then uh the
police officer should be terminated. Uh
I'm not excluding uh criminal charges.
Again,
the public needs to know uh when
officers are misusing this technology.
And as we've seen u you know that I
played at the top of the podcast where
uh a handful of officers in the state of
Georgia uh have been arrested and are
charged and no that are no longer
working for those uh departments. uh but
they found ways to get around the system
and so we need to make sure that there
are safeguards that are being put in
place to prevent these things from
happening and that there's not patterns
that are being utilized and I know you
know Mr. policy. You asked this
question, you know, how why would
somebody feel so comfortable with uh
with with violating a policy or
violating uh this technology? Again,
this is these are human beings. They
they they make mistakes. Uh we're
supposed to be um above making mistakes
like this here. But again, this is just
one uh piece of technology that that's a
tool that's that is definitely uh there
to benefit police departments, but now
we're seeing that it's being misused to
uh track people uh and to violate
people's uh privacy. Uh but you know
again I want to thank everybody for
tuning in to tonight's uh
[clears throat] podcast and u you know
uh definitely if you miss if you miss
any portions of this podcast go to our
YouTube channel if you don't subscribe
uh subscribe to you and the law podcast
on YouTube uh follow us on on Spotify
and so many other uh podcast platforms
but again I want to thank everybody for
tuning in and listening to our
conversation. tonight about the uh the
flock camera systems and the privacy
concerns. Uh and make sure you tune in
next Thursday because it is definitely
going to be another informative topic
right here on You and the Law Podcast.
Everybody have a good night and see you
next Thursday.
That's a wrap on this episode of You and
the Law Podcast. We've got more
eyeopening conversations and
hard-hitting insights coming your way.
So, make sure you subscribe on YouTube,
follow us on Spotify and Apple Podcast,
and stay ready because the next episode
might just change the way you see law
enforcement forever.