The Impact of Flock Cameras on Privacy and Policing: A Conversation with Attorney Stephanie Lindsey

so Stephanie thank you so much for joining me on the show today introduce yourself to everybody well Andy thank you for having me today I I love talking about flock cameras as you probably already know but um my name is Stephanie Lindsay I'm an attorney in state of Georgia I've been a practicing attorney for uh this year make 25 years very good congratulations so what what motivated you to become a lawyer you I get that question asked to me all the time and it's it's I I hate giving the response because it's so cliche but it's true and when I was little uh and my mother she's um passed on now but she used to tell me that um when I was little probably about three years old um a gentleman walked up to me and asked me what did I want to do when I became an adult what did I want to do in the future and um she said that my response wasi want to be a judge and he looked at me and she looked at me and was like you don't even know what that is and so as I got older I realized that you know in order to be a judge traditionally you had to be an attorney and so I wanted to be an attorney that's all I've ever wanted to be and I was blessed with an opportunity to become one and I've been one ever since that is awesome that you you just pick that and that is what you wanted to do and and here you are doing it you know I don't I don't understand and and if you believe in a higher being then that's the only way that you can explain that because I have never wanted to do anything else but this um I've never you know said oh I want to do this at one point no no I've always wanted to be an attorney always always and I it was GNA it was that's my destiny that's my calling and that's what I'm today and I'm I'm just so thankful for for the opportunity to help people and to help people in a different way because you can help people in all different aspects but I I'm using my legal knowledge and expertise to help individuals um do a lot of different things you know so I have a various area of um practice that I have so I do criminal some criminal defense do a lot of personal injury a lot of wrongful death so in all those aspects it's about helping people very good that's what I like to have in guests on my show or people who are they get up every day to make the world a better place to help as many people as they can so I very much appreciate to being here thank you thank you all right so you and I uh have a shared common interest and that is a the flock camera that has recently become um kind of prevalent over the last few years but a flock camera is just a automatic License Plate Reader so kind of explain to us what that is and why it's used by police well to start out I think that what fascinated me before even getting into the flock cameras was the tag readers that were used by repo drivers I don't know if you ever heard of that but repo drivers actually were the first ones to start using those tag readers and um the way that they worked the system was that they would have the camera on their vehicles and literally they would hire people to just drive around randomly just capturing images and so that's how they built up the data base in order for them to kind of utilize this technology on reading tags and finding tags so you know I I I heard a call one day years ago from a client who indicated to me that she had gotten arrested for getting in a fight at a Kroger and she got in a fight with the repo gentleman because she was in the store and um her husband was outside and the vehicle was tagged I guess picked up by the repo guy because she had done a title pond on the vehicle and so the title pond company had rep ped the vehicle and so as a result of that they were stopped and she didn't know that you could do that and so that's how I learned about these tag readers that can instantly pick up these tags and as long as the information is in the database the criteria is putting the database about the particular tag the the um the reader will actually like pick it up so like for instance if I know that I'm looking for a vehicle that has this tag number this car make model and color I can put that in the database and so that computer will just ride around or the camera will just ride around and as soon as it hits it'll alert the repo guy that the vehicle is right here and so that fascinated me and so as we move forward in life years past and I'm assuming that that technology has been that is evolved into what we have now which are the clock cameras which are everywhere so now this is a stationary camera that is placed randomly in the community um and they're placed by private entities and they're placed by government entities and they just basically pick up tags that's what they used to do now they're they're more enhanced and they picking up more than tags now but it's it's amazing to me how law enforcement has now um developed a um procedure a standard operating procedure of implementing those flock cameras in their investigations and how they transact um business as relates to Crime solving and um just getting gathering information on people that may be under investigation so it's it's um it's big brother at his finest Big Brother Edis bonis yeah it sounds like it so what sort of you know you talked about obviously they're getting the license plate what other information are these cameras pulling so these cameras are now able to pull images of the individuals that are in the car sometimes it may not be able to capture a full um um image of the person's features but it may be able to tell that there's more than one person in the car sometimes it does capture your features you have to look at it like this how many people that you you know have gone through a yellow light that's maybe just now turning red and they get a ticket weeks later and the ticket when they dispute it the ticket shows their face you know that happened to me I disputed a ticket and they sent me immediately me driving through the red light with a smile on my face like so you gota think about that kind of technology is now being using these block cameras so there's that information that the flock cameras are picking up they're also picking up information about the vehicle itself um it could have a sticker in the in the windshield or a sticker in the back of the vehicle um it dents any kind of identifying I um markers on the vehicle are going to be able to be placed in the flock camera system to pick up uh these vehicles so it it's just not the tag anymore right so you know Playing devil's advocate here um so like let's say you have a political party sticker on the back of your car they could sort all of the information you know based on the same political party sticker on it and people who have similar of it and kind of almost build a database of who supports what party in a community uh look I don't know that specifically but I do know this they're able to identify a particular sticker on the vehicle the location of a sticker on the vehicle and you know like you said planes devils Advocate like what is what are the limitations to to that what are the limitations on you saying I'm looking for a red and black sticker um that has this image on it and I want to see the tags associated with that sticker while I don't have personal um personal experience through my business and identifying that that's what that's used for I can only assume that if you're able to identify a particular sticker and the location of the sticker that you could take that information and go watch with it I mean there's nothing there's nothing limiting What The Flop camera system um capabilities are at this point because like I said initially we thought it was just reading a tag we now know that that's not the case it's more than just reading a tag you know okay one of the cases that I had where where we realized the um the ability of the F camera was when it comes down to these um vehicles that being stolen like you know deer proper the vehicles that are being stol like I had a client that told me that he just kept being stopped by police officers in different jurisdictions and he didn't understand and then and then what caught his attention was he was stopped in one jurisdiction and they made a comment about something that he said in another jurisdiction and that kind of you know made him think and when he told me that I said well how would they know that and what we found out was that that his vehicle was in a database not the vehicle itself but the fact that he had a Hellcat that had an out ofate license plate there was a criteria run in one jurisdiction picking up all those vehicles that meant that description and when he was stopped they got his vehicle identification number off of his windshield and you you you're saying to yourself well how do you do that well when the officer talking to you they're able to get all that information and so they put that information in the database so that's what caused him to keep popping up along with his license plate and so the notation was we need to figure out how we can get the vehicle identification number from somewhere else in the vehicle except for instead of just on the um on the um windshield you know you know in the dashboard area right right yeah right there in the front that's what caused me to realize wait a minute now how are you how are they getting this information and why is it how are they communicating with one another the way they're communicating with one another when you're not a suspect of anything and and that's when we delve more into the flock cameras and we started the flock camera series because people needed to know like you can be an innocent person that just has happen to have one of these vehicles and you're going to be targeted because you have one of these vehicles so right and then went from there to to you know them tracking individuals that maybe vanish from a county and putting their license plate in to see where they're where they've traveled why are you doing that you want to see if they're in the county but now you don't even have to have a witness that says that they're in the county now A Flock camera can pick up your tag and show that you're where you're not supposed to be right so you know there are people who say okay the flock camera provides an important service because they could potentially find a stolen vehicle or somebody who has been kidnapped and this vehicle has been reported and I think that's all well and good that's that's good policing but then on the other side uh we have well you know normal citizens are being Sur veiled at the same way that criminals are where does where does the Fourth Amendment fit into this and this new system that we find ourselves in well I can tell you what I've researched um I understand that concern um the concern is how far are they allowed to take it without having some type of oversight and as it stands right now there there has not been any successful challenge to the um Fourth Amendment you know rights that we have as relates to flock cameras and the reason that is because you don't have a right to privacy to your tag and remember right the purpose of the flock camera is to pick up the tag um you don't have a right to privacy on a sticker that's on your vehicle you don't have a right to privacy on anything that is open and obvious on the vehicle you don't have a right to privacy you don't have a right to privacy to the color of the vehicle that you're driving you don't have a right to privacy to the make a model of the vehicle because there's no right to privacy there is no Fourth Amendment violation now are there violations we would have to assume yes if you are tracking individuals um without any justification for why you're tracking individuals sure does that happen I would have to assume that it does but the bottom line is how do we prove that you don't prove that unless you are in a case that has resulted from that type of surveillance and you're able to track back that investigation to the illegal use of flock cameras and then you're able to proceed for with a motion to suppress that information because it was done you know illegally or unlawfully right so so to kind of bring this home for folks when you are in public you have no right to privacy and the courts have upheld that for a very long time that's right um and while that may make us feel uncomfortable that any I was actually talking to my 12-year-old son this morning and I said that I was talking to you in my podcast today and I was like you know talking about flock cameras and he's like well don't people need permission to take your picture and I was like well and that's what we teach kids that's what we teach kids now and so it was kind of hard to explain to him like no way because if you're in public you you really don't have a right to privacy which was kind of confusing to him and when I said it all out loud it kind of sounded confusing to me too let's think let's you know compare that to facial recognition software like when you're out and about you know you're you're you don't even know how many times you engage um that type of software in your day-to-day routine and so is there a constitutional violation for there to be face recognition software that picks up your image and you know runs any kind of you know background check or whatever the case may be as relates to the image that they found typically my understanding is if they catch an image they're only able to compare that image to an image that they have stored in the system like a bolo or something to that effect I mean are there opportunities to go beyond that I would seem so but we we we're not the way that we used to be back in you know the time where computers and Technology you know wasn't taking over everything you know we're not going we're not talking about using a Polaroid camera to take an image anymore that's not and waiting for it to come out and then we're not doing that so as technology evolves um as you know AI evolves yeah you there I would assume that there will be challenges to Fourth Amendment on constitutional rights however with the evolution of Technology the way way that it is it makes it it makes it very difficult right you know there are always exceptions that are in favor of the government when it comes down to Fourth Amendment issues so one of the exceptions is like like we already know if it's open and obvious is in plain view if it's in plain view then you know you there's no there's no issue there right right and and also to your point that you're making a moment ago the license plate that you have on your car belongs to the government technically it does not belong to you you pay fee for it and they require you to put it on your car so it's it's government property that is on your personal property do I have that right I'm not sure of that but I can tell you this much it really doesn't matter who owns it the bottom line is it's open and obvious is in plain view okay that that's that's the main thing it's in plain view you you by law you have to have your tag in plain view by law you cannot have your tag in any way covered you can't alter the tag you know to to speak to what you just asked I mean that could be an argument that it is government property because you get if it's yours you should be able to do what the hell you should be able do what you want to do with it you know but if you are if you alter that tag in any way that's a crime gotcha gotcha so if you if you hide the tag it anyway that's a crime okay so I need to go wash all the white out off the back of my license plate right now that's what you're telling me let me tell you something do you know that that's that Criminal don't like literally have a level of Genius that some of us can't even understand they now have an ability to put a uh film or to put pieces on the back of their tag so you can't pick them up on flock cameras there's a way to there's a way to mask that and so you would think that that would help you but again when you have characteristics on your vehicle that stand out then that also you know it doesn't help that you took the tag off or that you altered the tag or did something to the tag because the bottom line is they're still going to be able to find your vehicle and and and I've had that instance happen where an individual thought that by taking the tag off of their vehicle they would not be they would not be found okay and that did not work interesting it didn't work all interesting yeah you know I'm always fascinated the Ingenuity that some criminals exhibit to try to get around something or to steal or whatever and I think man that is such you know a great sign of intelligence I I just wish you could do something legal with it I'm sure I'm sure you hear that all the time yes yes definitely okay so we're talking about data collection in essence here like they're collecting all this data on our cars like when we go to a website we can sometimes opt out of this data can we as individual citizens opt out of a license plate reader company is that something that we can do I'm not sure you can do that because again the license plate is out in plain view and so you with a with a license plate reader what they're doing is my name is Stephanie I transact business with you and I just give you an example for the title Pon I am giving you my title to pawn when I give you my title to pawn you have my make my model my year my color my tag number those are the five things that you have and you have my name and so because you have that information and and and I I'm giving it to you that information is going to be placed in a database so that in the future if you decide that you're not going to pay I'm able to find that vehicle so think about it from this standpoint if you are seeking a service from someone that you need you you basically ass signing away so many rights when you do that that it's impossible for you to later on say I don't want every every every company that's out there that has a database of collecting tags I don't I don't want my information in it that's not going to happen because you signed over certain rights when you engage the business with the person that you you know are trying to not pay do you follow me yes so it's hard it's hard to use that principle of you know what this is a privacy issue and I want to opt out and I have a right to opt out because the person is not using the information for um financial gain their person is using information for the purpose of making sure that their collateral is protected right their rights are protected as relates to that right and so then you you you make a great Point here because I have done research on flock cameras they flock in particular and there's different brands that make these cameras motor Rolos another one uh but specifically with flock they are not selling your data they're not selling any of that sort of stuff it really just goes strictly to like police uh databases and that sort of thing so that is at least one thing you know in their favor that they're not selling this data without our consent they're not doing that and the neighborhoods now they're now it is started out focused on subdivisions that just wanted to have another measure of surveillance to deter crime in their community and it it it just evolved so much into Now The Government Can lease block cameras and that that's another layer of issues that you have when you see a block camera and um and and ironically I started the series and probably a week after I started the series the series I got a call from uh an individual from local law enforcement let me know um that because of my they they believe and it was joking when they said it but it was true because of me talking about the clock camera so much someone had come in the community and had destroyed a block camera oh all right and and I was like well that's not smart because they can capture you destroying the flock camera because they're GNA capture your image because even though you're not a vehicle you walked up to the camera and so as a result of that you're now on image for the Flop camera one of the things that I um a positive thing for Block camera is this I I was talking to one of my friends and they had indicated to me that someone had dumped I know everybody deals with this people that do illegal dumping in your community right and they had dumped on one of the main roads in our community they had dumped a sofa and a chair and I was like this is the craziest thing ever and as we were talking they they made a comment about the flock camera being close to where they dumped you and I said well maybe flock cameras can be used for that as well because if you are on a flock camera and you're driving a truck because you know that the sofa and the chair is not gonna fit in the car you're driving a truck you may be able to identify who the person was that was transporting it and Dr and um jumped it and so you said ear earlier there's so many positive things that the block camera can be used for and it is right you know we had a murder in our community that was solved because of a flock camera so okay the things like kidnappings um there's a show that used to be on hear no evil see no evil it used to be on identity and what they would do is they would just if somebody was missing up something happened to someone they would track all the carers that that person had um came in contact with and just would track keep tracking their movements through the cameras same thing with flock with the vehicles you know we have problems that are solved because you may have a vehicle that's picked up near a crime scene and you track that vehicle everywhere that that vehicle's gone and it sets a pattern that that may be the suspect that you looking for for a crime that that occurred so it's a lot of positive things that clock camera can be used for you just have to set parameters so there not misus right right and we'll we'll talk about I want to ask your opinion on on those parameters here in just a few minutes um but I think about three weeks ago uh Motorola uh faced privacy issues due to the fact that they had data leaks uh on their websites and what was happening was car details and images were not properly secured and so and I use the phrase hack like Loosely it was somebody who just realized oh wait a minute if I plug this information in I can get all of the data off of this motor roller License Plate Reader camera and then all of a sudden now somebody who is unauthorized has access to this information so with the data that's like being collected with these cameras how strictly does this stuff need to be safeguarded against from it falling into the wrong hands well I would say that with with any collection of data um if you're going to be the Catalyst for that type of Industry then you need to know that there are people that are going to be ready to challenge your ability to use those items especially if you are a person that likes privacy and so the first challenge would be whether or not the actual company has employ measures to secure that data because while that information may not have a financial interest to the the company that's collecting it if it is breached then it could be a financial U repercussion that the individual can suffer as a result of you not properly securing my adap so that I think that that starts the dialogue of what are the proper parameters to regulate that particular market and that's conversation that needs to be had because you know excluding what we're going what's going on right now with with data collection and individuals that should not have um access to certain data the bottom line is you have individuals that have um Mal feus on the heart they they they they don't have good intentions right for your information and so they're going to figure out a way that they can capitalize on getting this especially when you don't put in place um I guess mechanisms or measures to kind of deter from breaches happening like think about think about all the losses that have happened in the past where these companies they they were they were proud of the fact that they were able to collect all this data on you and they would sell your information to other companies that needed you know information about mothers that you know are um single mothers or or individuals that are you particular demographics in a particular region they're selling all this information and so now you know you got all this data about Vehicles all this data about individuals and um their their Lo frequencies you know because most of the most of these things started out with ton companies using this St and so you got all this information on people and you're not putting in any kind of measure to make sure that that information is safe they need I mean I I know that I know that people feel like we're in a litigious world but that's how you fight you know your privacy issues right there sometimes the Privacy issue is not fought on privacy grounds sometimes your privacy issues are fought on financial grounds because you messed up leaked by information and as a result somebody has stolen my identity pretended that they own this vehicle um that I owned and you know here we are I have now these individuals that have um gotten all these loans in my name just to give example when you go through your credit um clearances like when you apply for something and they ask you all these questions about um they they may ask you a question like what vehicle did you own uh in in 2000 um who would your loan um who's your lender on this particular vehicle right that's information that overlaps into these databases okay and so if they can get information on Stephanie and they may have this is her name this is where she used to live 10 years ago this is where she used to live but they don't have my information on a vehicle but they're able to get my information on a vehicle as a result of your sloppiness and your inability to secure my data then they have a whole picture of who I am and if that question is being asked they're able to provide a accurate response to that question right sometimes your best arguments are not necessarily arguments regarding privacy sometimes you can argue those issues and be able to get you know what you're trying to get accomplished that you would not have gotten accomplished if you challenge things by the four minute right okay so flock cameras and Motorola cameras and all these you know alpr cameras they are holding and retaining the data but they are also purging them but it seems to be in the research that I've done it's kind of up to the company where and when they want to do it and then it's kind of up to local law enforcement to say oh wait we need to hold on to this one for a little while and they can kind of flag it to keep it for longer um you know if you could write a law about you know alpr cameras in the state of Georgia what sort of like data retention would you put into it what sort of I don't know even public notice like what what would Stephanie's law be to help one police and also to privacy Advocates when it comes to these cameras well for one thing I think that there needs to be education um to the individuals that you know definitely are going to interact with this particular camera I think that there should be a notice placed in the paper um you know how they have legal notices when you know that there's a flock camera that's going to be coming to a particular Community you need to put that notice in a newspaper of that Community let people know that there's going to be a flock camera that's installed in the community and where it's going to be be installed now I know that there'll be people that'll say well you know what why would we want to do that because you know this this is this is primarily for criminals this is primarily for criminals well you know depending on who you are depending on how much Snak you make everybody is one step away from being identified by law enforcement as I mean that's the reality of it and so I think that it's important for us to have full transparency especially when the government they're the ones that are leasing it because you you have to be a government entity at least squat camer you could be a a neighborhood but they'll be able to use it and so I think that that's a start with um with writing legislation that addresses privacy issues with with um flock Cameron AS relates to anything else it's such a complex area and people don't realize how complex it is when you talk about the information that can be gathered in this um you if I say you know what this go ahead and Purge the information after a year but then there's something that happened you know two years ago and this would have been you know great for us to be able to utilize the technology to find out what the information was during that time period and how we can move forward with our investigation then that information is lost uh it's hard to tell a parent of a child that has been aduu abducted or a child that has um you know unfortunately has melt you know unfortunate circumstances um I Pur we purged the information so we can't get that information for you you know you keep everything else forever but you couldn't keep this information for four years so just in case it was needed you know later on and we would have it so right is it's so complex I mean I've never really even given it a lot of thought because the concern right now is just educating the people on what they are I mean some people didn't even know what they were they they I mentioned I said I'm going post some pictures of what they are and I posted pictures and and I had everybody that's in my neighborhood uhuh there's several of them they had no clue if you my dad used to raise us where when we he only did this to the girls he didn't do this to the boys uh we had to learn um um as we drove to pay attention to different things and my dad was in enforcement so he would always have us drive and then ask us questions about what we saw or what the street name was as you know he would you would be a street name 20 20 Paces back and he'll ask you well what was that street name you know a mile back you're like what and but you could not drive or get your license until you mastered this the girls okay uhuh so what that did was that that allowed me to learn how to pay attention to my surrounding when I D when I drive and so when I started seeing these things what in the world are those things you I mean like they because they don't look like camras and I thought that they were solar panels right so there were solar panels to help I guess um you know provide energy to certain things that were underground that's what I thought they were initially and then later on I realized they were they were cams right yeah they look like um they look like little bird houses on a pole with a little slanted uh solar panel on it and if you go to pretty much any Lowe's home Improvement store you will see them in their parking lot because they are tracking all of the cars that are coming in and out of their lot even if you don't have business in loads you're just driving through the flock cameras there are going to pick up your license plate yeah so that's uh that's that that's crazy and and you you didn't ask for that nope you you just want to go on there and get your your your items from loaves you want to get some plants you want to get some fertilizer you want to get you know some equipment you didn't you didn't ask me all your information about your vehicle to be put blast blast Blaster all over the United States because everybody's going to have it right yeah and that's the hard thing okay so we we've talked about flat cameras you know I felt like you've done a great job in educating is and what's good about them and what's bad for anybody who's just learning about this what tips do you have for them just to be able to navigate this subject and still try to maintain some level of privacy you know what I've been telling people is don't do CME because that's that's the thing you there's nothing that you can do to get around a flock camera there's you can't there there's no way that you can drive down the street see a FL camera and say I'm not I refuse to you know adhere to this um invasive intrusion on my rights and I'm gonna stop and I'm not going to go this way I'm G turn around and go another way because there's gonna be one wherever you go there's a flock camera you cannot miss it you know um that's all I can say it's it's just that if you are a homeowner association and you're interested in getting a block camera I would suggest that you really educate your homeowners on what that entails because while it would all it would be great for the neighborhood to monitor activity going in and out of the neighborhood at the same time you need to advise them that this is a permissible invasion of your privacy right yeah because a lot of people are like oh that sounds great because we'll catch criminals coming and out but it's also going to tag you going in and out maybe you're you're going in and out at odd hours maybe some car is driving to your house that you don't want to have to explain to everybody else because it's your own private business but that sort of stuff is getting logged by these cameras that are owned by HOAs well and you know what the crazy thing is um when we first started talking about this I said you know we don't realize that when we when we first learn about a product or a type of Technology we learn it the way it is and the way it's intended over time the purpose and the use changes and so while now is being used as an investigative tool for criminal activity there may be a time will it be it will be used as an investigative tool for civil activity for instance if if you are married and you're getting divorced and in the divorce action you're trying to prove certain things in the divorce action there may be a time where you would be able to utilize A Flock camera by providing a tag number making model of your spouse's vehicle and asking the company to provide the activities of where that vehicle has gone over a certain period of time yeah and not what people think about at first they don't think about that at first they're thinking oh yeah you know we want the criminals to be caught we want this we want that yes but you but then when you're the subject of it then you then then you worry about your rights that's that's what always amazes me you don't you don't think about your right you're thinking about look we're gonna get these criminals you're not your your rights are not in the for you know front of your thoughts because you're saying I said well I'm not doing anything wrong because that's the first thing people say on social media I don't have anything to worry about I'm not doing anything wrong well you have everything to worry about because if you're the target of whatever it is then and you're not doing anything wrong but you're just a Target you don't know what extent that they will go through to make sure that they can establish what they're wanting to establish about you so it's something to think about right now it's criminal investigation later on it may be civil it may be civil now we just don't know it true we don't know true yeah I mean this is just the very beginning of 2025 who knows what what things are going to look like in 10 months yeah we we don't we don't I mean look I I'll be the first one to tell you I learned about AI three years ago at a uh a law convention and you know when they were talking about AI they were saying that there is a particular um um software that will allow you to enter and draft up a brief and draft up documents from the standpoint of an attorney I was like no way and so in one of those areas they they were looking at law change to not make it where you have to pass a a bar to become a an attorney like you didn't have to take the bar exam to become an attorney because this technology was available to help facilitate some of the legal things that you needed to do and I was like you're right look at how many lawyers now are using chat GPT law yeah look non- lawyers are using it right right yeah yeah it's uh we're finding out new stuff every day so what I've what I've learned from from you today Stephanie is that um don't commit crime I need to back into my parking place uh from now on so that um somebody doesn't get my tag that way that doesn't help I had a client that did that really it did not help okay then he he backed into these places so you couldn't get his tag he took his tag off in some places and they still were able to track him because of a sticker good it it was amazing because there was nothing that would identify him at all wow was Unreal wow well Stephanie I have learned a lot from you today from you know the folks who were listening here they want to find out more about you and the series that you were doing on flock cameras on social media where can they find you online um attorney Stephanie so it's at attorney Stephanie on Tik Tok and at attorney Stephanie on um Instagram and our YouTube page um attorney Stephanie you I think there's um it's set up where the flock camera series is in one location so you can pick up all the flock camera information and is the same way organized on Tik Tok and Instagram but is a great series for you to look at because we started in the early stages and as we went along we still had people that were contacting us asking us questions about black cameras ironically we had attorneys contacting us asking about flock cameras um law enforcement was very engaged because I got I got calls from law enforcement you know I have a lot of people in law enforcement that I I I consider to be um friends and close to and they would tell me this is what's going on and this is what happened and you're not going to believe this and that's how I'm learning so much about it from the other the other aspect of it yeah W that's amazing so Stephanie thank you so much for your time today I appreciate you I appreciate that you were trying to educate us and you were trying to make your community a better place God bless you thank you thank you and thank you Andy for having me and giveing me an opportunity to talk more about flat Famers they're everywhere they are everywhere