Flock cameras and the privacy debate

Welcome back. Police departments across Minnesota Welcome back. Police departments across Minnesota are increasingly using flock departments across Minnesota are increasingly using flock license plate cameras to are increasingly using flock license plate cameras to help solve crimes, but the license plate cameras to help solve crimes, but the technology is also help solve crimes, but the technology is also raising a lot of privacy technology is also raising a lot of privacy concerns. Joining us now to raising a lot of privacy concerns. Joining us now to talk about this issue is a concerns. Joining us now to talk about this issue is a senior policy analyst with talk about this issue is a senior policy analyst with the ACLU, Jay Stanley. Jay, senior policy analyst with the ACLU, Jay Stanley. Jay, thanks for joining me. the ACLU, Jay Stanley. Jay, thanks for joining me. Thanks for having me on. thanks for joining me. Thanks for having me on. Jay, you’re considering an Thanks for having me on. Jay, you’re considering an expert on this topic. Jay, you’re considering an expert on this topic. You’ve written several expert on this topic. You’ve written several articles about flock You’ve written several articles about flock cameras. For our viewers who articles about flock cameras. For our viewers who aren’t familiar with these cameras. For our viewers who aren’t familiar with these cameras, can you just break aren’t familiar with these cameras, can you just break down what they are and cameras, can you just break down what they are and what they do? Yeah, so down what they are and what they do? Yeah, so license plate readers are what they do? Yeah, so license plate readers are basically AI enabled cameras license plate readers are basically AI enabled cameras that are pointed at traffic basically AI enabled cameras that are pointed at traffic on a road or highway. And that are pointed at traffic on a road or highway. And look at the license plate on a road or highway. And look at the license plate on each car. And use AI look at the license plate on each car. And use AI to figure out what the on each car. And use AI to figure out what the numbers is and then records to figure out what the numbers is and then records the fact that your license numbers is and then records the fact that your license plate was on this corner the fact that your license plate was on this corner at this time and stores plate was on this corner at this time and stores that in a database. A lot at this time and stores that in a database. A lot of the modern ones are that in a database. A lot of the modern ones are using AI to do more than of the modern ones are using AI to do more than just scan the license using AI to do more than just scan the license plate. They are collecting just scan the license plate. They are collecting information about your plate. They are collecting information about your vehicle overall bumper information about your vehicle overall bumper stickers you might have vehicle overall bumper stickers you might have distinguishing stickers you might have distinguishing characteristics like a gun distinguishing characteristics like a gun rack or modifications characteristics like a gun rack or modifications because you’re a disabled rack or modifications because you’re a disabled person or other person or other things. It is a powerful surveillance person or other things. It is a powerful surveillance tool and there are networks is a powerful surveillance tool and there are networks of these cameras all around tool and there are networks of these cameras all around the country that the company of these cameras all around the country that the company Flock runs all of them. And the country that the company Flock runs all of them. And so all that data can flow Flock runs all of them. And so all that data can flow to the company’s servers and so all that data can flow to the company’s servers and in many cases can be to the company’s servers and in many cases can be searched. By police in many cases can be searched. By police anywhere in America, even searched. By police anywhere in America, even a search in your anywhere in America, even a search in your community. So Flock says a search in your community. So Flock says that all their storing is community. So Flock says that all their storing is license plate information, that all their storing is license plate information, but you’re saying they’re license plate information, but you’re saying they’re collecting more than that. but you’re saying they’re collecting more than that. Do you guys have any data collecting more than that. Do you guys have any data or information that leads Do you guys have any data or information that leads you to believe that they are or information that leads you to believe that they are saving information about the you to believe that they are saving information about the car, about the driver saving information about the car, about the driver beyond just the license car, about the driver beyond just the license plate? plate? Well their own marketing materials, plate? Well their own marketing materials, they talk about what they marketing materials, they talk about what they call vehicle fingerprinting they talk about what they call vehicle fingerprinting technology, which stores the call vehicle fingerprinting technology, which stores the color, the make and the technology, which stores the color, the make and the model of cars in color, the make and the model of cars in addition to the license plate model of cars in addition to the license plate number. You know anything. Like crumpled bumper or as I said things like Like crumpled bumper or as I said things like bumper stickers. And so as I said things like bumper stickers. And so that is a much more bumper stickers. And so that is a much more powerful sort of vehicle that is a much more powerful sort of vehicle search tool than just the powerful sort of vehicle search tool than just the license plates. But even the search tool than just the license plates. But even the license plates is very license plates. But even the license plates is very powerful because it means license plates is very powerful because it means they can run your car. And powerful because it means they can run your car. And they could find out a bunch they can run your car. And they could find out a bunch of things about where they could find out a bunch of things about where you’ve been going and at of things about where you’ve been going and at what time. And that’s you’ve been going and at what time. And that’s where a lot of the privacy what time. And that’s where a lot of the privacy issues come in. So are the where a lot of the privacy issues come in. So are the privacy issues about data issues come in. So are the privacy issues about data collection and data storage privacy issues about data collection and data storage or is it more than that? It is about that. Yes, it’s mainly about that. I It is about that. Yes, it’s mainly about that. I mean records of where it’s mainly about that. I mean records of where people are going in their mean records of where people are going in their life. Are very private. It people are going in their life. Are very private. It can show things about how life. Are very private. It can show things about how often you go to bars, can show things about how often you go to bars, whether you go to certain often you go to bars, whether you go to certain doctors, Alzheimer’s whether you go to certain doctors, Alzheimer’s doctors, what kind of doctors, Alzheimer’s doctors, what kind of sexually oriented doctors, what kind of sexually oriented religiously oriented union sexually oriented religiously oriented union activity, political activity. religiously oriented union activity, political activity. All kinds of things there. activity, political activity. All kinds of things there. There have been agencies All kinds of things there. There have been agencies that have been found There have been agencies that have been found putting. License plate that have been found putting. License plate readers outside of gun putting. License plate readers outside of gun shows, for example. ATF was readers outside of gun shows, for example. ATF was doing that. And so this is shows, for example. ATF was doing that. And so this is something that’s provoking doing that. And so this is something that’s provoking concern across the political something that’s provoking concern across the political spectrum. We’re seeing a lot concern across the political spectrum. We’re seeing a lot of people on both the spectrum. We’re seeing a lot of people on both the left, the right and the of people on both the left, the right and the middle. Who are objecting to left, the right and the middle. Who are objecting to this kind of privacy middle. Who are objecting to this kind of privacy invasion. And, you know, this kind of privacy invasion. And, you know, obviously a police officer invasion. And, you know, obviously a police officer standing on a corner can obviously a police officer standing on a corner can see your vehicle. But if standing on a corner can see your vehicle. But if the police were following see your vehicle. But if the police were following you around 24/7 for a the police were following you around 24/7 for a month, you’d be very you around 24/7 for a month, you’d be very spooked out by that. Yeah, month, you’d be very spooked out by that. Yeah, certainly. You’ve written spooked out by that. Yeah, certainly. You’ve written that the biggest danger is certainly. You’ve written that the biggest danger is Mission Creep. What does that the biggest danger is Mission Creep. What does that mean and what are Mission Creep. What does that mean and what are some examples that you’ve that mean and what are some examples that you’ve already seen of these some examples that you’ve already seen of these systems being used in ways already seen of these systems being used in ways communities never systems being used in ways communities never anticipated? anticipated? Yeah, well. This is a very powerful anticipated? Yeah, well. This is a very powerful surveillance tool and what This is a very powerful surveillance tool and what happens when you create surveillance tool and what happens when you create systems like this is that happens when you create systems like this is that it does end up getting systems like this is that it does end up getting used for other things. There it does end up getting used for other things. There have been controversies used for other things. There have been controversies about people in communities have been controversies about people in communities saying, well, my local law about people in communities saying, well, my local law enforcement wants to do saying, well, my local law enforcement wants to do this and store this data enforcement wants to do this and store this data maybe for a limited period this and store this data maybe for a limited period of time. That’s one that’s maybe for a limited period of time. That’s one that’s okay. And then are surprised of time. That’s one that’s okay. And then are surprised to learn that a sheriff in okay. And then are surprised to learn that a sheriff in Texas is searching their to learn that a sheriff in Texas is searching their data and looking for a woman Texas is searching their data and looking for a woman who had an abortion, which data and looking for a woman who had an abortion, which is currently illegal in who had an abortion, which is currently illegal in Texas. And that it’s being is currently illegal in Texas. And that it’s being used by ICE for immigration Texas. And that it’s being used by ICE for immigration detention. It’s being used used by ICE for immigration detention. It’s being used to investigate to investigate protesters. So that is a lot of the to investigate protesters. So that is a lot of the reason why we worry about So that is a lot of the reason why we worry about Mission Creep. And we’re reason why we worry about Mission Creep. And we’re also seeing AI used for Mission Creep. And we’re also seeing AI used for it. People are getting also seeing AI used for it. People are getting stopped. Because they are it. People are getting stopped. Because they are told that they’re quote stopped. Because they are told that they’re quote unquote patterns of told that they’re quote unquote patterns of movement are suspicious. And unquote patterns of movement are suspicious. And Flock brags about this in movement are suspicious. And Flock brags about this in their marketing materials Flock brags about this in their marketing materials that they can do analyses their marketing materials that they can do analyses and flag people who for that they can do analyses and flag people who for whatever whatever reason may be driving around in ways whatever reason may be driving around in ways that are different from driving around in ways that are different from everybody else and bring that are different from everybody else and bring them to the attention of everybody else and bring them to the attention of law enforcement. And then them to the attention of law enforcement. And then law enforcement will law enforcement. And then law enforcement will sometimes pull those people law enforcement will sometimes pull those people over on a pretext. So sometimes pull those people over on a pretext. So that’s the kind of way over on a pretext. So that’s the kind of way that AI is making uses that’s the kind of way that AI is making uses of this technology in that AI is making uses of this technology in ways that a lot of people of this technology in ways that a lot of people don’t expect when they ways that a lot of people don’t expect when they just say, okay, the police don’t expect when they just say, okay, the police say it’s going to be used just say, okay, the police say it’s going to be used to catch bad guys that say it’s going to be used to catch bad guys that I’m in favor of that. to catch bad guys that I’m in favor of that. And of course I’m in favor of that. And of course everybody’s in favor of And of course everybody’s in favor of that, but you have to ask everybody’s in favor of that, but you have to ask what the side effects are. that, but you have to ask what the side effects are. How much control do these what the side effects are. How much control do these cities have that deploy How much control do these cities have that deploy the flock cameras over the cities have that deploy the flock cameras over the data and where that data the flock cameras over the data and where that data goes? goes? So they have a certain amount of goes? So they have a certain amount of control when you if your certain amount of control when you if your city decides that you want, control when you if your city decides that you want, that it wants to have a city decides that you want, that it wants to have a contract with Flock. The that it wants to have a contract with Flock. The first decision first decision is does your city share its data first decision is does your city share its data nationwide? And what Flock your city share its data nationwide? And what Flock can do is they can let nationwide? And what Flock can do is they can let your police chief do a can do is they can let your police chief do a search of a license plate your police chief do a search of a license plate not only in your community, search of a license plate not only in your community, but anywhere in America. not only in your community, but anywhere in America. But if they want, if your but anywhere in America. But if they want, if your police chief wants that But if they want, if your police chief wants that power. Then they have to police chief wants that power. Then they have to agree to share your power. Then they have to agree to share your community’s data with all agree to share your community’s data with all the other police chiefs community’s data with all the other police chiefs everywhere in America. And the other police chiefs everywhere in America. And that’s when you see a lot everywhere in America. And that’s when you see a lot of the ice usages and that’s when you see a lot of the ice usages and stuff. And so, but you can of the ice usages and stuff. And so, but you can say you don’t want to be part stuff. And so, but you can say you don’t want to be part of that and that you don’t say you don’t want to be part of that and that you don’t want block to make your of that and that you don’t want block to make your community’s data available want block to make your community’s data available everywhere in the country. community’s data available everywhere in the country. And you can put a lot of everywhere in the country. And you can put a lot of other restrictions we have And you can put a lot of other restrictions we have on our website recommended other restrictions we have on our website recommended language. We recommend not on our website recommended language. We recommend not becoming a customer flock, language. We recommend not becoming a customer flock, but some cities decide to. becoming a customer flock, but some cities decide to. And if you’re going to do but some cities decide to. And if you’re going to do that, you can limit the way And if you’re going to do that, you can limit the way that it’s used. You can that, you can limit the way that it’s used. You can limit how long the data is that it’s used. You can limit how long the data is retained. Some things you limit how long the data is retained. Some things you can’t control. The data is retained. Some things you can’t control. The data is still flowing to this for can’t control. The data is still flowing to this for profit company about, you still flowing to this for profit company about, you know, everybody in your profit company about, you know, everybody in your community and where they’re know, everybody in your community and where they’re driving and when. But there community and where they’re driving and when. But there are a lot of things that driving and when. But there are a lot of things that you can do to limit how are a lot of things that you can do to limit how much of that data is you can do to limit how much of that data is shared. You’ve written about much of that data is shared. You’ve written about how Flock has changed some shared. You’ve written about how Flock has changed some of its contracts in ways how Flock has changed some of its contracts in ways that shift control away of its contracts in ways that shift control away from the cities. So what that shift control away from the cities. So what should cities know before from the cities. So what should cities know before they sign a contract? What should cities know before they sign a contract? What they should they be they sign a contract? What they should they be looking for before they they should they be looking for before they sign a contract or renew a looking for before they sign a contract or renew a contract with Flock. Yeah, I think the biggest thing is again. thing is again. Are you allowing nationwide data thing is again. Are you allowing nationwide data sharing. sharing. What kinds of. Data retention periods are sharing. What kinds of. Data retention periods are you allowing for? you allowing for? And then look at exactly what you allowing for? And then look at exactly what they’re saying in terms of look at exactly what they’re saying in terms of does your city own the they’re saying in terms of does your city own the data? Does your city get does your city own the data? Does your city get to access. The data? In its data? Does your city get to access. The data? In its original form? original form? And that’s where we’ve seen some of original form? And that’s where we’ve seen some of these shifting contract where we’ve seen some of these shifting contract language by the company. these shifting contract language by the company. Creating pitfalls for language by the company. Creating pitfalls for cities. cities. We’ve had people say, you know, if this cities. We’ve had people say, you know, if this helps police catch dangerous say, you know, if this helps police catch dangerous criminals, you know, why helps police catch dangerous criminals, you know, why wouldn’t we use it? Why criminals, you know, why wouldn’t we use it? Why should we be against it? wouldn’t we use it? Why should we be against it? What do you say to those should we be against it? What do you say to those people? people? Yeah, look, obviously everybody, we’re all in people? Yeah, look, obviously everybody, we’re all in favor of catching dangerous everybody, we’re all in favor of catching dangerous criminals, but you have to favor of catching dangerous criminals, but you have to ask, you know. What, not criminals, but you have to ask, you know. What, not just does this ever do ask, you know. What, not just does this ever do anything? And of course, the just does this ever do anything? And of course, the police will tout its anything? And of course, the police will tout its successes. But what kind of police will tout its successes. But what kind of failures are there? How successes. But what kind of failures are there? How many innocent people are failures are there? How many innocent people are getting caught up by many innocent people are getting caught up by errors? And there have been getting caught up by errors? And there have been people all around the errors? And there have been people all around the country who have found people all around the country who have found themselves lying on the country who have found themselves lying on the pavement with a jittery themselves lying on the pavement with a jittery police officer pointing a pavement with a jittery police officer pointing a gun at them. Because a flock police officer pointing a gun at them. Because a flock reader or another licensed gun at them. Because a flock reader or another licensed company’s license plate reader or another licensed company’s license plate reader misread their license company’s license plate reader misread their license plate or the misread what reader misread their license plate or the misread what state it was or the NCIC, plate or the misread what state it was or the NCIC, which is the FBI criminal state it was or the NCIC, which is the FBI criminal database that Flock which is the FBI criminal database that Flock references. Wasn’t updated. database that Flock references. Wasn’t updated. So a car that was stolen references. Wasn’t updated. So a car that was stolen has actually been So a car that was stolen has actually been returned and it was a rental has actually been returned and it was a rental car. You’re renting it. And returned and it was a rental car. You’re renting it. And now the police think that car. You’re renting it. And now the police think that you’re a dangerous criminal now the police think that you’re a dangerous criminal because the system is you’re a dangerous criminal because the system is messed up. And, you know, because the system is messed up. And, you know, police made errors before messed up. And, you know, police made errors before we had these kinds of police made errors before we had these kinds of system. But when you have we had these kinds of system. But when you have this company and other system. But when you have this company and other companies that are often this company and other companies that are often equally as scary, you know, companies that are often equally as scary, you know, doing billions of plate equally as scary, you know, doing billions of plate reads every day. Then doing billions of plate reads every day. Then you’re going to get more reads every day. Then you’re going to get more errors. You’re going to get you’re going to get more errors. You’re going to get more of this kind of stuff errors. You’re going to get more of this kind of stuff happening. And we’re all more of this kind of stuff happening. And we’re all susceptible to, you know, happening. And we’re all susceptible to, you know, being caught up by an susceptible to, you know, being caught up by an error. We’re all susceptible being caught up by an error. We’re all susceptible to the police targeting us error. We’re all susceptible to the police targeting us because, you know, we’re to the police targeting us because, you know, we’re driving around aimlessly. because, you know, we’re driving around aimlessly. Maybe we’re looking at driving around aimlessly. Maybe we’re looking at houses or something and Maybe we’re looking at houses or something and their algorithm decides that houses or something and their algorithm decides that we’re suspicious. And so. And their algorithm decides that we’re suspicious. And so. And also, you know, if I’m we’re suspicious. And so. And also, you know, if I’m driving downtown at two in also, you know, if I’m driving downtown at two in the morning. And I’m not driving downtown at two in the morning. And I’m not doing anything wrong, why the morning. And I’m not doing anything wrong, why are the police keeping tabs doing anything wrong, why are the police keeping tabs on me? Why are they keeping are the police keeping tabs on me? Why are they keeping records on when I’m driving on me? Why are they keeping records on when I’m driving and where I am? And I records on when I’m driving and where I am? And I think a lot of Americans and where I am? And I think a lot of Americans just find it fundamentally think a lot of Americans just find it fundamentally offensive and feel that the just find it fundamentally offensive and feel that the government shouldn’t be offensive and feel that the government shouldn’t be looking over everybody’s government shouldn’t be looking over everybody’s shoulder just in case looking over everybody’s shoulder just in case you’re a criminal. Looking shoulder just in case you’re a criminal. Looking over everybody’s shoulder you’re a criminal. Looking over everybody’s shoulder all the time. And that’s not over everybody’s shoulder all the time. And that’s not the way that, you know, all the time. And that’s not the way that, you know, we’re supposed to live in the way that, you know, we’re supposed to live in America. This happened we’re supposed to live in America. This happened just yesterday, an America. This happened just yesterday, an automotive journalist who’s just yesterday, an automotive journalist who’s based here in Minnesota automotive journalist who’s based here in Minnesota wrote about his encounter based here in Minnesota wrote about his encounter with a local police wrote about his encounter with a local police department. You know, he with a local police department. You know, he gets new cars every couple department. You know, he gets new cars every couple of weeks. I’ve interviewed gets new cars every couple of weeks. I’ve interviewed Joel a couple times in my of weeks. I’ve interviewed Joel a couple times in my career. But Joel Federer, Joel a couple times in my career. But Joel Federer, he writes for the Drive.com career. But Joel Federer, he writes for the Drive.com and several other automobile he writes for the Drive.com and several other automobile review sites and news and several other automobile review sites and news publications. And he was review sites and news publications. And he was driving like he always publications. And he was driving like he always does a lone vehicle. He driving like he always does a lone vehicle. He gets a new car about every does a lone vehicle. He gets a new car about every two weeks. And he was driving gets a new car about every two weeks. And he was driving this lone vehicle and got two weeks. And he was driving this lone vehicle and got stopped by police. They put this lone vehicle and got stopped by police. They put him through the ringer for a stopped by police. They put him through the ringer for a couple hours, him and his him through the ringer for a couple hours, him and his wife. Turns out it was all a couple hours, him and his wife. Turns out it was all a big mistake. They had the wife. Turns out it was all a big mistake. They had the license plate wrong. Is big mistake. They had the license plate wrong. Is this something that is license plate wrong. Is this something that is happening to everyday this something that is happening to everyday people normally? And what’s happening to everyday people normally? And what’s your reaction to what people normally? And what’s your reaction to what happened to Joel? Yeah, I your reaction to what happened to Joel? Yeah, I mean, that’s terrible. happened to Joel? Yeah, I mean, that’s terrible. And, you know, it’s scary mean, that’s terrible. And, you know, it’s scary to have law enforcement And, you know, it’s scary to have law enforcement thinking that you’re a to have law enforcement thinking that you’re a really dangerous person thinking that you’re a really dangerous person when you know you’re not. And some of those cases turn out very tragically, as we And some of those cases turn out very tragically, as we all know. And so that’s a out very tragically, as we all know. And so that’s a dangerous thing. And you all know. And so that’s a dangerous thing. And you know, a lot of people say, dangerous thing. And you know, a lot of people say, well, I don’t have anything know, a lot of people say, well, I don’t have anything to hide, so why do I care well, I don’t have anything to hide, so why do I care if everybody’s watching? to hide, so why do I care if everybody’s watching? And, you know, one of the if everybody’s watching? And, you know, one of the answers is because of And, you know, one of the answers is because of errors, because mistakes are answers is because of errors, because mistakes are made. And when you, the errors, because mistakes are made. And when you, the more surveillance you do, made. And when you, the more surveillance you do, the more decisions you’re more surveillance you do, the more decisions you’re making about is this the more decisions you’re making about is this person okay? Is this making about is this person okay? Is this person okay? Then the more person okay? Is this person okay? Then the more this is going to happen. person okay? Then the more this is going to happen. But, you know, it’s also this is going to happen. But, you know, it’s also not just about errors. It’s But, you know, it’s also not just about errors. It’s all you don’t want, we don’t not just about errors. It’s all you don’t want, we don’t want to have this kind all you don’t want, we don’t want to have this kind of surveillance because it want to have this kind of surveillance because it creates chilling effects. of surveillance because it creates chilling effects. It makes everybody feel creates chilling effects. It makes everybody feel watched all the time. It It makes everybody feel watched all the time. It lends itself to abuses, for watched all the time. It lends itself to abuses, for example, political purposes. And so, you know, I think that the lesson here is And so, you know, I think that the lesson here is that, you know, when the that the lesson here is that, you know, when the police towel, oh, this had that, you know, when the police towel, oh, this had this great success from the police towel, oh, this had this great success from the surveillance this great success from the surveillance technology, you have to surveillance technology, you have to look beyond that and not technology, you have to look beyond that and not just say, okay, that’s look beyond that and not just say, okay, that’s great, but what are the just say, okay, that’s great, but what are the other side effects of this great, but what are the other side effects of this technology? And what is it other side effects of this technology? And what is it doing for our communities? technology? And what is it doing for our communities? Right. And we did interview doing for our communities? Right. And we did interview Joel and we’ve got that Right. And we did interview Joel and we’ve got that story up on Fox 9. If Joel and we’ve got that story up on Fox 9. If anybody wants to see his story up on Fox 9. If anybody wants to see his story, he also published a anybody wants to see his story, he also published a lengthy article about his story, he also published a lengthy article about his encounter with police and lengthy article about his encounter with police and this mishap on the encounter with police and this mishap on the Drive.com. what’s one this mishap on the Drive.com. what’s one question that you think Drive.com. what’s one question that you think that residents and city question that you think that residents and city council members should be that residents and city council members should be asking themselves before council members should be asking themselves before they sign a contract or asking themselves before they sign a contract or consider working with they sign a contract or consider working with Flock. Flock. I mean, I think one of the basic questions Flock. I mean, I think one of the basic questions is, you know, how do you how of the basic questions is, you know, how do you how would you feel after a while is, you know, how do you how would you feel after a while after this has been going would you feel after a while after this has been going on for a while, just sort after this has been going on for a while, just sort of knowing that. There is on for a while, just sort of knowing that. There is logged at the police of knowing that. There is logged at the police station? You know, a record logged at the police station? You know, a record of where you’re driving and station? You know, a record of where you’re driving and when. And, you know, at of where you’re driving and when. And, you know, at first you might not think when. And, you know, at first you might not think about it, might not seem first you might not think about it, might not seem like a big deal, but I think about it, might not seem like a big deal, but I think that over time it creates like a big deal, but I think that over time it creates chilling effects. And, you that over time it creates chilling effects. And, you know, maybe you’re going to chilling effects. And, you know, maybe you’re going to protest the police or know, maybe you’re going to protest the police or you’re going to protest protest the police or you’re going to protest something else. And you’re you’re going to protest something else. And you’re just like, or you heard something else. And you’re just like, or you heard about somebody who was just like, or you heard about somebody who was stopped by error or about somebody who was stopped by error or something like, like the stopped by error or something like, like the person that you interviewed something like, like the person that you interviewed or stopped because their person that you interviewed or stopped because their movements were or stopped because their movements were suspicious and you start movements were suspicious and you start saying to yourself. The suspicious and you start saying to yourself. The police going to think that saying to yourself. The police going to think that this driving that I’m doing police going to think that this driving that I’m doing is suspicious. And you start this driving that I’m doing is suspicious. And you start to become self is suspicious. And you start to become self conscious. And I don’t think to become self conscious. And I don’t think that that. S how we should conscious. And I don’t think that that. S how we should have to live in this that that. S how we should have to live in this country. country. Yeah. Where do they place these cameras? country. Yeah. Where do they place these cameras? That’s what I’m having a they place these cameras? That’s what I’m having a hard time understanding. That’s what I’m having a hard time understanding. Like where are these cameras hard time understanding. Like where are these cameras that they’re capturing Like where are these cameras that they’re capturing constantly capturing photos that they’re capturing constantly capturing photos of my license plate? They’re around streets. Sometimes they’re high up, They’re around streets. Sometimes they’re high up, but often they’re just a Sometimes they’re high up, but often they’re just a little pole. You’ll see a but often they’re just a little pole. You’ll see a poll. It’s got a little little pole. You’ll see a poll. It’s got a little camera and it has a poll. It’s got a little camera and it has a distinctive little solar camera and it has a distinctive little solar panel on it. Is the typical distinctive little solar panel on it. Is the typical ones that you see just panel on it. Is the typical ones that you see just sort of by the side and ones that you see just sort of by the side and the road. There are some sort of by the side and the road. There are some that are hidden. For the road. There are some that are hidden. For example, the DEA has license that are hidden. For example, the DEA has license plate readers on a lot of example, the DEA has license plate readers on a lot of highways. Even. highways. Even. All over the country, not just along the highways. Even. All over the country, not just along the southern border. southern border. And they are often hidden in like southern border. And they are often hidden in like orange traffic barrels. So are often hidden in like orange traffic barrels. So it varies. But a lot of the orange traffic barrels. So it varies. But a lot of the flock cameras are very it varies. But a lot of the flock cameras are very identifiable. There’s sort flock cameras are very identifiable. There’s sort of a poll and there’s a identifiable. There’s sort of a poll and there’s a little camera with the of a poll and there’s a little camera with the usual smoke dome and then little camera with the usual smoke dome and then there’s. A solar panel on usual smoke dome and then there’s. A solar panel on top of it. Wow. We have there’s. A solar panel on top of it. Wow. We have two communities here top of it. Wow. We have two communities here recently who ended their two communities here recently who ended their contracts with flock amid recently who ended their contracts with flock amid data sharing data sharing concerns. And those two communities are data sharing concerns. And those two communities are right outside Minneapolis. those two communities are right outside Minneapolis. The Brooklyn Park and right outside Minneapolis. The Brooklyn Park and Columbia Heights. Will The Brooklyn Park and Columbia Heights. Will that complicate them Columbia Heights. Will that complicate them working with nearby that complicate them working with nearby departments if they are not working with nearby departments if they are not part of this network that departments if they are not part of this network that other departments are a part part of this network that other departments are a part of? of? I don’t see any reason why it has to be. You of? I don’t see any reason why it has to be. You know, I think that the why it has to be. You know, I think that the smarter and more know, I think that the smarter and more professional police smarter and more professional police leaders, they recognize professional police leaders, they recognize that they serve their leaders, they recognize that they serve their community and that they have that they serve their community and that they have to reflect the community’s community and that they have to reflect the community’s desires and values in to reflect the community’s desires and values in what kind of especially desires and values in what kind of especially advanced surveillance what kind of especially advanced surveillance technology that’s very advanced surveillance technology that’s very controversial, very brand technology that’s very controversial, very brand new in the human experience controversial, very brand new in the human experience of millions of years of new in the human experience of millions of years of human beings. This is the of millions of years of human beings. This is the first time the governments human beings. This is the first time the governments had this kind of power. had this kind of power. And so we are seeing had this kind of power. And so we are seeing around the country a lot of so we are seeing around the country a lot of towns and cities that are around the country a lot of towns and cities that are in many cases. in many cases. Canceling their flock count tracks or in many cases. Canceling their flock count tracks or the contracts with other their flock count tracks or the contracts with other vendors like Axon and the contracts with other vendors like Axon and Motorola. And an even more vendors like Axon and Motorola. And an even more questioning it and having Motorola. And an even more questioning it and having debates about it. So it is questioning it and having debates about it. So it is something that has really debates about it. So it is something that has really entered the public awareness something that has really entered the public awareness as people are becoming entered the public awareness as people are becoming more and more aware of it. And it’s, you know, it’s generating controversy, And it’s, you know, it’s generating controversy, as I said, on left and generating controversy, as I said, on left and right for various reasons. as I said, on left and right for various reasons. Yeah, it sparked a lot of right for various reasons. Yeah, it sparked a lot of concern across the country. Yeah, it sparked a lot of concern across the country. And here in Minnesota as concern across the country. And here in Minnesota as more than 100 police And here in Minnesota as more than 100 police departments here use it. Jay more than 100 police departments here use it. Jay Stanley with the ACLU. I so departments here use it. Jay Stanley with the ACLU. I so appreciate you joining us. Stanley with the ACLU. I so appreciate you joining us. Thanks so much for having